Brake Thread - OEM Ceramics vs OEM Steel

[classba]

David did you ever track your car - I mean properly do a session on track with your ceramics?

LOl... the C6 is NOT a car you should take to the track. I have a much better weapon for that with YES.. Ceramics. How ever, I have used the Ceramics so hard constantly that they were smoking ( if I did that with the steels, they would had be red hot glowing and failed ) and they have never faded or failed me so might as well be on the track TBO.

Anyway... all to their own if people want to track a 2 ton barge and to use steels.

BTW, roll back... when Tiff Neddle reviewed the C6, Audi gave him a different car with the ceramics just to go round the track

[IanH755]

David - On the road they are great and no-one is saying differently so I'm not sure why the defensiveness. I am saying that on the track they are more likely to be damaged by the sheer duration they would be kept "constantly smoking" than steel discs, but again, no-one is saying they don't work so I'm very confused as to your comments which seem to suggest you think I am saying ceramics are "bad" and steels are "good" which isn't true.

As per your "So non of you making all these assumptions has NEVER owned the OEM C6 ceramics" I ask the question back to you "did you ever track your C6 when it had ceramics?" because if the answer is no then you are also making an assumption that getting the discs smoking on the road is the equivalent of a trackday and I can tell you that track and road brake behaviour are two very different things. As I mentioned above I did 49 stops from 160-30mph plus about 150 stops from 100ish-30mph for corners (so about 200+ 100mph+ stops) in about 4 hours (2x 2hrs sessions). On the road you can't use the brakes like that so you will never be keeping the discs at high operating temps (900'c) for more than a few minutes at a time due to traffic etc whereas if you drove on the same trackday as me track they would have be kept at 900'c for upto 2 hrs and it is keeping the disc so hot for those sort of durations (well 10min+ really) that causes damage to ceramic discs as the resin starts to break down which is an extremely well documented occurrence.

Again, I'm not saying Ceramics are "bad" as it happens to all makes like Audi, Porsche & Ferrari etc using CCM or PCCB C/Sic technology. The only type that doesn't suffer this potential heat damage is proper Carbon/Carbon material used in F1 etc and it is much cheaper to replace a damaged steel disc than it is to replace a damaged ceramic disc.

As an aside, steels do still work when glowing red hot as myself, SuprSi (whose brakes were on actual fire) and TomRS (who has pics of his glowing brakes during a trackday) have proven.

[Golfather]

the C6 is NOT a car you should take to the track.

This.

the Ceramics..have never faded or failed...

This.

if I did that with the steels, they would had be red hot glowing and failed...

And this.

[Golfather]

"did you ever track your C6 when it had ceramics?"

Nice, how did it feel on the track?

BIG

FAT

and

HEAVY !!

lol ... its no track car !

still, got 160 on the clocks up the back straight ... now thats scary having to brake in time !!



Ceramics

[Surrey Sam]

Ahh this old chestnut.

It always makes me chuckle how those who've never utilised both options, will argue vehemently until they're blue in the face that steels are the way to go.

In my M3 days, I ran AP Racing BBK's and managed to warp two sets of drilled discs. After returning the discs for inspection and lengthy discussion with their tech department, we finally settled on a grooved disc's which were better but not brilliant.

Moving on to Audi products, I again suffer issues with steel brakes! Yet swapping over to Ceramic's makes my continual brake issues disappear with the same type of fast road use.

[IanH755]

I will say again slowly in capitals for those who can't be bothered to actually read what I actually wrote and instead jumped in with wildly inaccurate assumptions of what I've said.

CERAMIC....DISCS.....ARE....GREAT.......BUT.....ON.....THE....TRACK....THEY......ARE.....MORE.....LIKELY.....TO....SUFFER....DAMAGE.....THAN....STEEL.....DISCS.

Thats it, nothing more! I have said NOTHING N-O-T-H-I-N-G about ceramics performance and won't as I haven't used them. I have only pointed out that they are more likely to suffer damage during a trackday than steel discs, thats all, understand?

Hopefully that gets the point across that I am saying nothing about the performance of ceramics but my guess is someone will still somehow think after all this that I'm still saying "ceramics are bad & steel discs are better", FML!

[classba]

LMAO... I best swap out my R8 GT ceramics to their lesser capable steel brakes to take it on the track... hang on... but the R8 GT is made for the track so I'm well Feck'd then lol Best call Audi Gmbh to ask them to read this thread and to learn something. LMFAO. You got to laugh

To all those that has not experienced the ceramics in a C6... I will ask you this.... would you straight swap with NO cash exchanged for your so called TRACK spec steel discs set up for the OEM ceramics if you were given the chance??? Go on make my day and say "NO".

[Golfather]

[classba]

Ian.... How many times you take your C6 on the track????? Every week end?, once a month, once every few months or once a year?.

To say that the steel brakes still works when glowing red ... yes they will but how well is the question?. It is a fact that steel brakes performance drops dramatically with build up of temperature especially when tracked... please search You Tube for many comparisons e.g.: Ml63 AMG against Porker Cayenne turbo... one with ceramics and the other with steels and you will see the brake fade difference after X amount of hard stops. I have never heard of ceramic discs failing/ gets damaged with heat and on the track... maybe the occasion that you have read somewhere could be the one off chance and a one off car?.. just maybe?.

Golf has kindly dug out DK's comment when he owned a C6 and took it on the track and I don't recall him saying that his ceramic discs were fecked afterwards???. Maybe DK drives like a pussy cat then braking hard from 160 into a corner.

[Shinobi675]

Come on guys, get a grip, you sound like a bunch of Jeremy Corbyn cult followers!

So, Ian has said throughout this thread and other threads that he like ceramics... So why the hostility? Even if he'd said "the devil made ceramics!" Well so what!

And the thing that gets me about this argument EVERY TIME. Is when David you said it gives you more stopping POWER... That's bollocks, it doesn't, it can't, the limiting factor is tyre grip, so biting the disks hard (more power) isn't going to make "locked up" and more "locked up".

So now to the question. Would I take a pair for free... Damn right! The lower unsprung mass helps turn in, the lack of brake dust helps my inability to clean, the calipers look cool and they don't fade.

Next question. Would I use them on track? No, they are too expensive I would buy a set of racing steels for this. And that would be for any car I fracked, be it c6, b8, Porsche or R8. It's not worth the potential outlay. Even with steels in a Porsche you're looking at about £600 outlay per track day for regular track use, tyres, serving, disks and pads. So why put in another large sum for ceramics. As Ian says, the OEM ceramics aren't track focused, they're road bias. All good! So why have a minor off into the gravel, where the only cost is the ceramic from a stone...

So, summary, ceramics are expensive but are great but they are not great with ANYTHING to do with more power....

[rtd]

Come on guys, get a grip, you sound like a bunch of Jeremy Corbyn cult followers!

So, Ian has said throughout this thread and other threads that he like ceramics... So why the hostility? Even if he'd said "the devil made ceramics!" Well so what!

And the thing that gets me about this argument EVERY TIME. Is when David you said it gives you more stopping POWER... That's bollocks, it doesn't, it can't, the limiting factor is tyre grip, so biting the disks hard (more power) isn't going to make "locked up" and more "locked up".

So now to the question. Would I take a pair for free... Damn right! The lower unsprung mass helps turn in, the lack of brake dust helps my inability to clean, the calipers look cool and they don't fade.

Next question. Would I use them on track? No, they are too expensive I would buy a set of racing steels for this. And that would be for any car I fracked, be it c6, b8, Porsche or R8. It's not worth the potential outlay. Even with steels in a Porsche you're looking at about £600 outlay per track day for regular track use, tyres, serving, disks and pads. So why put in another large sum for ceramics. As Ian says, the OEM ceramics aren't track focused, they're road bias. All good! So why have a minor off into the gravel, where the only cost is the ceramic from a stone...

So, summary, ceramics are expensive but are great but they are not great with ANYTHING to do with more power....

hit nail on proverbial head.

[doodlebug]

On like for like stopping force agreed, however you then have to look at whether your limiting factor IS in fact grip. So there is still a valid argument, until someone dishes up the max brake force for the two options.

In an ideal world you'd take a track focused ceramic on track for a far bastard like the C6. All down to cost.

[TomRS]

Well this has just turned into a d!ck swinging contest hasn’t it….

I’m 26 and the childishness here would put me to shame.


If anyone actually took the time to read what ian said then there would have been no need for all this defensiveness, and equally I don’t knock ceramics either I think they are an amazing but at the end of the day when you compare the price of ceramics over a set of steel the price difference is huge.

Its all well and good saying “get ceramics” but who really has 12-15k to spend on aftermarket ceramics or 6-8k on used C6 ones, if you’re a rich kid with a fantastic job then good for you!!! however for most of us we don’t have a spare £10k I know I don’t.
Sure I could save it over a few months and do it but do I want to drop that amount of money on a 6yr old car? No I don’t.

I like tracking the RS6, its different and I actually quite enjoy it, I have 5 cars some expensive some sheds, they all have a purpose be it towing my race car or a dedicated track car or a car to go to work in…. I can pick from two race inspired cars to track if I want.
However there is something seriously satisfying about throwing round a 2tonne barge outbraking cars half the weight and just having fun.

Anyway moving forward, ruining Ians thread here!

[Shinobi675]

On like for like stopping force agreed, however you then have to look at whether your limiting factor IS in fact grip. So there is still a valid argument, until someone dishes up the max brake force for the two options.

Unless you're Fred Flintstone, tyres are the only thing connecting you to the thing you're using to stop, the floor. Playing devils advocate, could the lower unsprung mass improve your tyre contact patch? Possibly, but not as much as £4K of suspension work. But both together, I guess possible, but doesn't seem likely as you're pushing the tyre to generate the largest contact patch at that point in the line.

In an ideal world you'd take a track focused ceramic on track for a far bastard like the C6. All down to cost.

I'm not fast enough to use a full carbon setup I'd love a go though

[doodlebug]

On like for like stopping force agreed, however you then have to look at whether your limiting factor IS in fact grip. So there is still a valid argument, until someone dishes up the max brake force for the two options.

Unless you're Fred Flintstone, tyres are the only thing connecting you to the thing you're using to stop, the floor. Playing devils advocate, could the lower unsprung mass improve your tyre contact patch? Possibly, but not as much as £4K of suspension work. But both together, I guess possible, but doesn't seem likely as you're pushing the tyre to generate the largest contact patch at that point in the line.

I failed to explain myself. Grip is only the limiting factor if your brakes can apply sufficient force to lock the wheel. It is possible that one variant or both don't achieve this, therefore brake force becomes the limiting factor.