massive power loss :(

4.2 V8 32v Naturally Aspirated - 414 bhp
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neilparf
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Re: massive power loss :(

Post by neilparf » Tue May 20, 2014 4:12 pm

TonyHayers wrote:How does the ECU know to <beep> timing? ah. maybe from the manifold flap position sensor not corresponding to the value the ECU expects it to be at?
Yes. As the whole system is very 'connected' and any weak link will impair the overarching system; the manifold flap position sensor is out of sync from the expected reported value to the ECU, hence retarding. The position of the Manifold flaps can be logged with VCDS so they will obviously have a sensor; the specified values are either 0% (tumble position) or 99.6% (no tumble position).
TonyHayers wrote:I'm 99% sure there is no position sensor on the airbox flap or exhaust flaps.
The position of the Power flap in the airbox is not monitored with a sensor - correct. However, the specified and actual values of the Exhaust Flap position can be logged using VCDS in the 'Advanced Measuring Value feature'. Manifold flaps - 'Group 142' 0% (tumble position) or 99.6% (no tumble position). Exhaust Flap -'Group 79' are measured as ON or OFF. They don;'t have a sensor per se.

:thumb:
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2007 RS4 B7 Saloon, Metallic Silver with SS+.
LED's all round and Dectane LED tailights. KDS detail and paint. Lepsons black chrome, heavy on the silver wheels. JCWeldFab full system - valved and no pre-cats. MRC stage 2, de-flap and full carbon clean - 438PS and 489NM. HEL brake lines. H&R Spacers. Gtechniq C1 and EXO V2 coatings. 2010+ RNS-E. On the MRC dyno: http://youtu.be/y_k0VJ2--y8

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neilparf
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Re: massive power loss :(

Post by neilparf » Tue May 20, 2014 4:24 pm

DaytonaRs4 wrote:great bit of info neil...should hear some feedback from autohaus in next day or so and will update on the culprit
Good luck!! in the last year mines had 3 Vac associated solenoids - air box power flap (and new lower air box) last week fitted by me and two others I can see a year ago looking at the receipt by the previous owner.

The later associated to the EPC light coming on looking at the tech report on the invoice - the labour was £360 and the two solenoids £50 each :0/

You'll see a massive difference with no vac issues...
Gone but never forgotten:
2007 RS4 B7 Saloon, Metallic Silver with SS+.
LED's all round and Dectane LED tailights. KDS detail and paint. Lepsons black chrome, heavy on the silver wheels. JCWeldFab full system - valved and no pre-cats. MRC stage 2, de-flap and full carbon clean - 438PS and 489NM. HEL brake lines. H&R Spacers. Gtechniq C1 and EXO V2 coatings. 2010+ RNS-E. On the MRC dyno: http://youtu.be/y_k0VJ2--y8

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DaytonaRs4
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Re: massive power loss :(

Post by DaytonaRs4 » Tue May 20, 2014 11:49 pm

Mechanically linked dyno (noisy) power run vid @310hp

http://youtu.be/s7BBxAbkZxU
2013 RS5 Phantom Black, MRC Stage 2 and TCU, Bilstein B16 IRC, 034 Arms, H&R ARB's, Milltek non res, ITG, 20” Ispiri FFR6 / PS4s, AP Radical 6 pot brakes / 390mm floaters, Pagid RSL1, JL Audio, EMtuning headlight build, Gtechniq ceramic and Llumar PPF

Gone: Daytona B7 RS4 saloon

S4Player
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Re: massive power loss :(

Post by S4Player » Tue May 20, 2014 11:55 pm

What gear did they run it in?
1*** hp TTE C6 rs6 saloon and the ultimate WB B5

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DaytonaRs4
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Re: massive power loss :(

Post by DaytonaRs4 » Wed May 21, 2014 8:16 am

S4Player wrote:What gear did they run it in?

im sure it was 4th or 5th, to be honest i was making my way from the waiting area to outside for the power runs to take videos...

i believe MRC do it in 5th but i would have to check with ecotune...

heres another vid of the calibration / 1st run....

http://youtu.be/KEWa2B66VtI
2013 RS5 Phantom Black, MRC Stage 2 and TCU, Bilstein B16 IRC, 034 Arms, H&R ARB's, Milltek non res, ITG, 20” Ispiri FFR6 / PS4s, AP Radical 6 pot brakes / 390mm floaters, Pagid RSL1, JL Audio, EMtuning headlight build, Gtechniq ceramic and Llumar PPF

Gone: Daytona B7 RS4 saloon

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DaytonaRs4
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Re: massive power loss :(

Post by DaytonaRs4 » Thu May 22, 2014 10:03 pm

Dreaded Carbon.... Dont think its ever been cleaned

Image
2013 RS5 Phantom Black, MRC Stage 2 and TCU, Bilstein B16 IRC, 034 Arms, H&R ARB's, Milltek non res, ITG, 20” Ispiri FFR6 / PS4s, AP Radical 6 pot brakes / 390mm floaters, Pagid RSL1, JL Audio, EMtuning headlight build, Gtechniq ceramic and Llumar PPF

Gone: Daytona B7 RS4 saloon

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surfpunkian
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Re: massive power loss :(

Post by surfpunkian » Fri May 23, 2014 3:44 pm

Hey DaytonaRs4, Autohaus especially Davie are great. Had my carbon clean, manifold, map, suspension and lots of little bits done there and they have always been spot on. My Daytona saloon was in for mot today and I saw yours there I think N2 *** ? Looks in great shape so once the powers back it'll be awesome! I really noticed the gains after the clean, deflap, and map...
Daytona Grey RS4 B7 Saloon, carbon cleaned, titan alloys, LEDs, deflap manifold and stage 1 map, Bilstein PSS9 coilover set up, 8mm spacers, lowered.

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sakimano
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Re: massive power loss :(

Post by sakimano » Fri May 23, 2014 5:18 pm

carbon certainly hurting, but definitely vac leaks at play. The curve is comical beyond 5500 RPM.

Will be interesting to see a dyno at ECOtune AFTER the work...and then another dyno at ECOtune after you go MRC (if you do). Nice to get a consistent look at the various delta because so often guys get carbon/vac fixed while also getting tune/etc and the results/delta gets jumbled together.

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DaytonaRs4
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Re: massive power loss :(

Post by DaytonaRs4 » Sun May 25, 2014 10:24 pm

toshers wrote:Really keen to hear how you get on at Autohaus. That's a couple of us now, so a write up would be very welcome :thumbs:
Was expecting car back friday but unfotunately davy at autohause was let down with his core plug supplier (needed for deflap). He said the runner flaps had play aswel as mega carbon build up so hopefully accounts for losses. Vac valve under manifold being replaced too. He certainly knows his stuff and wants to take all vac lines off car and test for leaks. Which sounds good to me. Full fluid change all done so hoping i feel a difference in g/box and brakes too...

Car will be ready tuesday but i wont be able to collect as i willbe in aberdeen. :(...its going directly to exhaust fabricators tue/wed for full system. Get the beast back on friday....
2013 RS5 Phantom Black, MRC Stage 2 and TCU, Bilstein B16 IRC, 034 Arms, H&R ARB's, Milltek non res, ITG, 20” Ispiri FFR6 / PS4s, AP Radical 6 pot brakes / 390mm floaters, Pagid RSL1, JL Audio, EMtuning headlight build, Gtechniq ceramic and Llumar PPF

Gone: Daytona B7 RS4 saloon

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DaytonaRs4
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Re: massive power loss :(

Post by DaytonaRs4 » Sun May 25, 2014 10:31 pm

sakimano wrote:carbon certainly hurting, but definitely vac leaks at play. The curve is comical beyond 5500 RPM.

Will be interesting to see a dyno at ECOtune AFTER the work...and then another dyno at ECOtune after you go MRC (if you do). Nice to get a consistent look at the various delta because so often guys get carbon/vac fixed while also getting tune/etc and the results/delta gets jumbled together.

Yeah my untrained eye thought the curve looked piss poor after 5500rpm. One very loose runner flap prob being a big part of my problems, amongst other issues.

I plan on getting it on same dyno post fixes,C clean, 200 cell cats and exhaust..... Remap willprob be another few weeks, give the bank balance time to catch up...
2013 RS5 Phantom Black, MRC Stage 2 and TCU, Bilstein B16 IRC, 034 Arms, H&R ARB's, Milltek non res, ITG, 20” Ispiri FFR6 / PS4s, AP Radical 6 pot brakes / 390mm floaters, Pagid RSL1, JL Audio, EMtuning headlight build, Gtechniq ceramic and Llumar PPF

Gone: Daytona B7 RS4 saloon

adsgreen
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Re: massive power loss :(

Post by adsgreen » Mon May 26, 2014 8:37 am

There is absolutely no need to take the vac lines off to test them. They all route to the front if the engine under the carbon cover. Dead easy to test them all with a vac pump in situ.

The manifold flap are monitored and the Ecu will throw an immediate error code if the reported position deviates too far from actual. However a vac leak can cause them to slowly close enough to cause issues but not enough to trip Ecu. Loose flaps will also cause issues as the Ecu will think its fine.

It will <beep> fueling and timing - the exhaust sensors will show a massively rich mixture due to the air being restricted so the Ecu will compensate for this. Also the Ecu will still switch to the power cam profile but with the wrong amount if air and fuel it'll absolutely kill performance. Logging is your friend.

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DaytonaRs4
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Re: massive power loss :(

Post by DaytonaRs4 » Tue May 27, 2014 4:13 pm

carbon clean done and few more vac issues found....:(

Image

Image
i think this the N335 variable intake manifold change over valve that feeds tumble flaps?

few more bits to replace then car going straight to exhaust shop tomorrow....
2013 RS5 Phantom Black, MRC Stage 2 and TCU, Bilstein B16 IRC, 034 Arms, H&R ARB's, Milltek non res, ITG, 20” Ispiri FFR6 / PS4s, AP Radical 6 pot brakes / 390mm floaters, Pagid RSL1, JL Audio, EMtuning headlight build, Gtechniq ceramic and Llumar PPF

Gone: Daytona B7 RS4 saloon

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DaytonaRs4
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Re: massive power loss :(

Post by DaytonaRs4 » Tue May 27, 2014 4:16 pm

surfpunkian wrote:Hey DaytonaRs4, Autohaus especially Davie are great. Had my carbon clean, manifold, map, suspension and lots of little bits done there and they have always been spot on. My Daytona saloon was in for mot today and I saw yours there I think N2 *** ? Looks in great shape so once the powers back it'll be awesome! I really noticed the gains after the clean, deflap, and map...
Hi mate, yeah davy knows his stuff, yeah thats my car N2..., davy mentioned you were in haveing a wee look...he also mentioned today that yours is back in?...oil cooler????....
2013 RS5 Phantom Black, MRC Stage 2 and TCU, Bilstein B16 IRC, 034 Arms, H&R ARB's, Milltek non res, ITG, 20” Ispiri FFR6 / PS4s, AP Radical 6 pot brakes / 390mm floaters, Pagid RSL1, JL Audio, EMtuning headlight build, Gtechniq ceramic and Llumar PPF

Gone: Daytona B7 RS4 saloon

adsgreen
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Re: massive power loss :(

Post by adsgreen » Tue May 27, 2014 5:23 pm

DaytonaRs4 wrote:carbon clean done and few more vac issues found....:(
i think this the N335 variable intake manifold change over valve that feeds tumble flaps?

few more bits to replace then car going straight to exhaust shop tomorrow....
Yes that looks like the part.
I'm not sure as I haven't tested or gone into detail however I suspect the ECU only checks the flap position once.
So something like
- engine below 3k rpm, no vac to manifold flaps so actual position = requested position (0%)
- engine goes above 3k rpm, ECU issues signal to solenoid to open causing the vacuum to be supplied to the actuators.
- actuators move as required vacuum is less than the amount available so actual position = requested position (100%)
- ECU goes "manifold ok" and never bothers to re-read the sensor.
- now the vacuum line is "active" it starts to bleed vacuum and it drops. Under full throttle vacuum is at its minimal level so it's likely the vacuum drops causing the flaps to close after the ECU has issued it's little check. Doesn't help that at 4.5k the exhaust flaps will (possibly) open along with the airbox valve at 5.5k. Every time a soloid / actuator engage a small amount of vacuum is lost.
- Engine is effectively starved of air but about 50%, the cam profile / timing and fueling is all wrong so power drops like a stone.
-rpms drop below 3.5 k, ecu cuts the vacuum to the flaps and then re-reads the position. All is well as actual position = requested position (0%).

This is purely my guesswork as I've not been able to log but it would be easy to rig up a test

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surfpunkian
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Re: massive power loss :(

Post by surfpunkian » Tue May 27, 2014 8:43 pm

DaytonaRs4 wrote:
surfpunkian wrote:Hey DaytonaRs4, Autohaus especially Davie are great. Had my carbon clean, manifold, map, suspension and lots of little bits done there and they have always been spot on. My Daytona saloon was in for mot today and I saw yours there I think N2 *** ? Looks in great shape so once the powers back it'll be awesome! I really noticed the gains after the clean, deflap, and map...
Hi mate, yeah davy knows his stuff, yeah thats my car N2..., davy mentioned you were in haveing a wee look...he also mentioned today that yours is back in?...oil cooler????....
Yeah man, after sailing through the MOT it seems the oil cooler pipes decided to give up over the weekend :(

I probably shouldn't have poked them when it was up on the ramp! Ah well after this that's most of the age/wear related bits done - all in the last year - ouch.

Suspension replaced, carbon clean, manifold deflap, all discs and pads, now oil cooler & pipes, then clutch I expect .....

But when I've done a 1500 mile trip driving it hard it all gets forgotten as it's such an epic car and fun to drive.

Hope yours gets sorted and looking forward to hearing the exhaust!
Daytona Grey RS4 B7 Saloon, carbon cleaned, titan alloys, LEDs, deflap manifold and stage 1 map, Bilstein PSS9 coilover set up, 8mm spacers, lowered.

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