Is supercharging worth it?

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PetrolDave
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Re: Is supercharging worth it?

Post by PetrolDave » Sun Mar 11, 2012 7:07 pm

sakimano wrote:For a couple of 50 year olds you sure act strange.
You sure act strange if all you do is drive your car on dead smooth, dead flat, dead straight roads in 1/4 mile bursts.

On this side of the pond roads are much longer than 1/4 mile, have really rough uneven surfaces and tend to have lots of bends, elevation changes and camber changes. So a good car is all about the right balance of power and torque (and the characteristics of both of those vs rpm) plus good ride and handling - 1/4 mile times give information about less than half of the factors that matter in a great car, so they are of no more than minor passing academic interest, they are NOT and NEVER will be the ONLY measure of a great car.

I've already posted an example (in one of your previous thread hijacks onto 1/4 mile times) where a car that according to it's 1/4 mile times should have been vastly superior to the car I had at the time, yet EVERY TIME it's owner and I drove our favourite stretch of road I beat him by not just seconds but minutes. Why? Beacuse his car had lots of power and torque but had cr*p handling, so even though he was a much better driver than me and his car cost 4 times as much as mine I was faster and had more fun (he had to fight his car most of the way). So 1/4 mile times are a worthless measure - I have real world proof of that.
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Re: Is supercharging worth it?

Post by adsgreen » Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:08 pm

If we move the relevance of a 1/4 mile time to the side (as I think it's pretty apparent the two camps will never agree) I just wanted to add my comments on the 1/4 results from MRC.

Firstly they looks stunning and as Sak's says this puts it flat in the ball park for the Merc SLS and Ferrari 458 cars which I don't think anybody would complain about.
But also worth pointing out both have double clutch gearboxes with seemless shifting (ferrari claim 0.06 sec shift time). So even a driver with no mechanical sympathy is going to struggle to make 3 manual shifts in 0.18 seconds total... lucky to get anywhere near that for one shift!

Now, putting my Arthur hat here:
I would say a manual change time of between 0.3 - 0.5 seconds is fair.
So if you were redlining each shift and not taking into account aero resistance, you would cover the following distance in feet whilst changing gear:
1st to 2nd 17.6 - 29.3
2nd to 3rd 29.4 - 49.1
3rd to 4th 43.1 - 71.8
Total between 72.1 and 132.3 feet with no engine power.
Given that a 1/4 mile is only 1320 feet thats 5%-10% of the whole event.

Now if the RS4 had a 458 DCT gearbox...
1st to 2nd - 3.5
2nd to 3rd - 5.9
3rd to 4th - 8.6
Total 18 feet or just over 1%.

It also highlight what critics of this test have been putting accross.
330' time is frankly not so good...must have been a bad 1-2 shift and or 2-3 shift. For perspective dan@jhm ran with tune/exhaust/clutch 12.29...with an identical 330 foot time. This car should be in the 4seconds at 330'.
Now it wouldn't be a thread with Sak's participating without a JHM reference but this one statement has a couple points.
I don't think JHM will claim 620ps/630nm with a tune and exhaust so what does this mean that the cars pulled similar times as 330ft is a fair distance.
- Limit of traction - not likely with a tune+exhaust however in gears 1-2 I suspect the TTS could very easily overwhelm the available traction.
- Driver Error/Experience - As we've said all along, launching an N/A car is relatively straightforward. You find the rev that works for you and point n go. Forced induction adds something that most drivers can't deal with easily without practise as the low down torque is high enough to mean that full throttle mashing isn't an option. As soon as you get to this power output level it's all about the driver balancing power and traction in the lower gears.
As an anecdote, I've driven two almost identical cars with the only difference being the addition of a supercharger. One worked out to be circa 400bhp/ton and the SC about 600bhp/ton. Both launching and turn one entry speed was way higher with the N/A car and the lap times broadly simlar (certainly not what you'd expect with such a massive engine boost). The reason was the power was there (and I believe the builder's dyno after driving it) but with me driving it couldn't get the power down (fecking thing would light up the rears even with slicks in 4th) and so on paper the stats didn't match up. It's possible to add too much power...

Overall a nice distraction and adds to what most people were happy with but not the be all and end all.

As for:
If the quarter mile is such a terrible benchmark, why do Car & Driver put every car they test down the 1320? (in addition to 0-60 and other such data).
Simple. It's all about selling magazines. Also, just because a journalist puts a statistic in print doesn't mean that it's some form of holy grail.

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Re: Is supercharging worth it?

Post by sonny » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:41 pm

Bloody hell, has everyone been on the juice tonight?
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Re: Is supercharging worth it?

Post by RS04YOB » Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:03 pm

Wish I never posted that after all I have bought a APR kit but that's another can of worms to be opened no doubt :<beep>_you: :<beep>_you:

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Re: Is supercharging worth it?

Post by Doug_S2 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 11:40 pm

I don't really care about the times at the pod as it is pretty obvious a skilled driver or the dsg cars would do a lot better time. But the trap speeds are what shows the power. We would not have got a faster speed as it was on the limiter in 4th. You can see from gear changes they are nothing special and I can't change gear faster than Stuart.

Like I have said all along - these cars have the power - and a thrash or high rev race they are silly fast. From low revs a turbo car or a big V8 with 700nm at 2k gets the jump

Perfomance box logs:

Time 16:34 Date 10/03/2012

Accel results
Speed(mph) Time(s)
0-60 03.6
0-100 08.1

Accel Distance results
Distance() Time(s) @Speed(mph)
0-60' 01.9 34.6
0-1320' 11.7 124.6
0-60' 01.9 34.6
0-1320' 11.7 124.6

Braking results
Speed(mph) Time(s) Distance(ft)
60-0 13.3 289.5
100-0 18.7 911.5

User range
Speed(mph) Time(s)
30-130 ----
62-124 07.6
0-100-0 34.9

Misc
Vmax 126.6mph
Vavg 11.6mph
AvgLatG 0.02G
PkLatG 0.40G
PkAccelG 1.14G
PkDecelG 0.66
Attachments
paul supercharged perfomrnace box log.png
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Re: Is supercharging worth it?

Post by adsgreen » Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:55 am

sonny wrote:Bloody hell, has everyone been on the juice tonight?
I wish. Wife now at 8.9 months gone and on 'amber alert'.
Although I could be suffering from withdrawal symptoms ;)

Big thumbs up to doug and hopefully we can move on from this as this kit is the real deal.
It's definitely on my list for later in the year :)

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Re: Is supercharging worth it?

Post by sakimano » Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:40 pm

PetrolDave wrote:
sakimano wrote:For a couple of 50 year olds you sure act strange.
You sure act strange if all you do is drive your car on dead smooth, dead flat, dead straight roads in 1/4 mile bursts.
I thought you were an engineer? Focus on the facts for a moment.

Where did I say I only go to the dragstrip and that the RS4 is only for the 1/4 mile? where? I said it's a great TEST for a power adder, and it's fun. THAT'S IT! Of course I hit the twisties. Of course the car is far more than dragracing. I'm talking about how to test the acceleration gains of a POWER ADDER...so who gives a <beep> about the corners?

If I start a thread about suspension options would you suggest measuring the car's 0-60mph time in order to see how the suspension works? And would you call me names for suggesting some handling tests and a day at a road course to test the suspension mod instead? because that's tantamount to what you're doing in this thread calling the 1/4 mile ridiculous as a measurement for a power adder...and that's what you're doing by obsessing on the RS4's cornering ability.

You're just being ridiculous.

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Re: Is supercharging worth it?

Post by bam_bam » Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:53 pm

sakimano wrote:If I start a thread about suspension options would you suggest measuring the car's 0-60mph time in order to see how the suspension works? And would you call me names for suggesting some handling tests and a day at a road course to test the suspension mod instead?
Yes (on both counts).


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Re: Is supercharging worth it?

Post by PetrolDave » Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:58 pm

sakimano wrote:so who gives a <beep> about the corners?
1) Every RS4 owner who enjoys driving.

2) A power increase without the handling to cope with it will eventually result in a big (expensive and painful) crash. So corners matter - a lot.
sakimano wrote:You're just being ridiculous.
Pot, kettle, black.
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Re: Is supercharging worth it?

Post by sakimano » Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:05 pm

adsgreen wrote:It also highlight what critics of this test have been putting accross.
Now it wouldn't be a thread with Sak's participating without a JHM reference but this one statement has a couple points.
I don't think JHM will claim 620ps/630nm with a tune and exhaust so what does this mean that the cars pulled similar times as 330ft is a fair distance.
- Limit of traction - not likely with a tune+exhaust however in gears 1-2 I suspect the TTS could very easily overwhelm the available traction.
- Driver Error/Experience - As we've said all along, launching an N/A car is relatively straightforward. You find the rev that works for you and point n go. Forced induction adds something that most drivers can't deal with easily without practise as the low down torque is high enough to mean that full throttle mashing isn't an option. As soon as you get to this power output level it's all about the driver balancing power and traction in the lower gears.
As an anecdote, I've driven two almost identical cars with the only difference being the addition of a supercharger. One worked out to be circa 400bhp/ton and the SC about 600bhp/ton. Both launching and turn one entry speed was way higher with the N/A car and the lap times broadly simlar (certainly not what you'd expect with such a massive engine boost). The reason was the power was there (and I believe the builder's dyno after driving it) but with me driving it couldn't get the power down (fecking thing would light up the rears even with slicks in 4th) and so on paper the stats didn't match up. It's possible to add too much power...

.
Thanks for being able to discuss things from a facts first perspective.

Dan @ JHM is a great driver, that's why I mentioned him. He launches the car like a champ, shifts without lifting his foot off the gas (his shifts take about 0.2 seconds, not 0.3 which is a normal fast shift) and is a fantastic driver both in a straight line or on a road course. jason@jhm is even better at this. Watch the video below and listen to the shifts...ridiculously fast.

My point there, that the TTS car and Dan's car were equal after 330 feet and that indicates how the driver is doing, not how the supercharger is doing. I agree. Time however is what is driver dependant, not trap speed in MPH. The MPH the car crosses the line at shows us a reflection of the power the car is making..a.k.a. is the kit legit. TTS is.

For example

Stock RS4 = 107mph trap speed (and makes around 330 wheel horsepower, or 420 crank horsepower when clean/optimal)
Dan@JHM (tune+full 2.75 catless exhaust+clutch) = 111 mph trap speed (and makes around 365 wheel horsepower, or 460 crank horsepower)
APR SC RS4 = 116-117 mph trap speed (and makes around 425 wheel horsepower)
APR SC S5 = same
TTS RS4 launched well = 124 mph trap speed (and makes around 480 wheel horsepower, or 600 crank horsepower)
TTS RS4 launched poorly = 124 mph trap (and makes around 480 wheel horsepower, or 600 crank horsepower)

Trap speed doesn't vary all that much, no matter who is driving and the 12.0 run vs. the 11.7 run, both by the same driver, both within an hour, both at Santa Pod show this...the trap speed was almost IDENTICAL. You can't make more power by being a good driver...and you can't fool the trap speed. THAT'S why we ask for quarter mile runs when companies splash impressive dynos up.

p.s. PES and VF's RS4 supercharged cars ran 12.6 @ 112 as their best despite claiming 410-420 wheel horsepower (500-525 ps). Obviously bullshit. APR trapped 116-117 with that power. JHM trapped 112 same as PES/VF with 60 whp less than VF/PES claimed. Again...that's why everyone's so demanding.

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Re: Is supercharging worth it?

Post by sakimano » Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:10 pm

PetrolDave wrote:
sakimano wrote:so who gives a <beep> about the corners?
1) Every RS4 owner who enjoys driving.

2) A power increase without the handling to cope with it will eventually result in a big (expensive and painful) crash. So corners matter - a lot.
I'm defending the use of the 1/4 mile as a good test of the power being put down. You're attempting to discredit the 1/4 mile. You have failed miserably and can talk about nothing but irrelevant items like your flipping renault or how the supercharged car corners. All you've accomplished is proving:

1. bambam is your buddy
2. you two don't like me thus want to argue

Both 'accomplishments' change nothing. You're just out to lunch on the usefullness of the quarter mile to measure a car's acceleration. That persists.

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Re: Is supercharging worth it?

Post by Timster » Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:11 pm

Please God please.... make it stop...
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Re: Is supercharging worth it?

Post by sakimano » Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:20 pm

Doug_S2 wrote: the trap speeds are what shows the power.
Perfomance box logs:
Time 16:34 Date 10/03/2012

Accel results
Speed(mph) Time(s)
0-60 03.6
0-100 08.1

Accel Distance results
Distance() Time(s) @Speed(mph)
0-60' 01.9 34.6
0-1320' 11.7 124.6
0-60' 01.9 34.6
0-1320' 11.7 124.6

User range
Speed(mph) Time(s)
30-130 ----
62-124 07.6
0-100-0 34.9
Doug thanks for posting that up. Was that file from Saturday at Santa Pod? Great idea to get the data while running.

Do you have the file saved? Would be nice to review it and submit to the 6speedonline guy for inclusion in the 62-124 list. You have an extra shift in there than you maybe ought to for best 62-124 results (2-3) but still looks strong. Car looks like it's moving very well. Congrats to you guys.

p.s. does anyone have danny's full modlist?
exhaust?
downpipes? cats?
clutch/flywheel?
stock wheels?

I know he has ceramic brakes.

Here's some of the 6speedonline results for 62-124 (100-200kmh)

2.0 – Renault R25 F1 car (800+ HP / 1,300 lb curb weight)
3.5 – Hayabusa Turbo (316 HP)
4.8 – Veyron
5.3 – Koenigsegg CCX
6.1 - Mclaren F1
6.2 - Pagani Zonda F
6.4 - Carrera GT
6.5 – Pagani Zonda R
6.7 - Enzo
6.8 - GTB 599
7.2 - SLR
7.6 - TTS/MRC SC B7 RS4
7.8 - Murci LP640
7.9 - C6 Z06
8.0 - Ford GT
8.4 - 997TT
8.4 - F430
8.4 - 996 GT2
8.6 - M6
8.7 - SL65 AMG
8.8 - Gallardo Superleggera
8.8 - M5
8.9 - S65 AMG
9.1 - Gallardo SE
10.0 - E55 AMG
10.2 - 996 GT3
10.2- Viper SRT-10
10.5 - E63 AMG
10.8 - 993TT
11.2 - AM Vanquish S
11.2 - Audi RS-4 (2007)
11.3 - Audi RS-6

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Re: Is supercharging worth it?

Post by bam_bam » Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:55 pm

Sakimano. NO. ONE. CARES.

Can this thread go away now?
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Is supercharging worth it?

Post by RSKiwi » Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:01 pm

TimsterRS4 wrote:Please God please.... make it stop...
I enjoyed this^ quite a lot.

I honestly cannot face anymore popcorn.
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