BMW E60 M5

[JohnH]

Sorry have to dissagree there. Very few owners I know of M3/M5s in the UK have had rechips and only the ones that do track days seem to upgrade the brakes. A few have done exhausts mainly for better sound. Everybody knows that engine mods on these cars are pointless as they really do not bring much improvement compared to the cost. Also in UK most people are concerned about losing their warranty as BMW dealers are quite strict on this. May of course be different in other countries but if you did a poll on BM3W for instance you would get quite a very high proportion with no mods.

[Riz_RS4]

I disagree also..... BMW M cars have always been engineered well.... ok maybe some people find some issues with them but as a whole package its a very good car....

Take my R32 for example... in my eyes the standard exhaust, suspension and engine are second to none.... very good for a standard package on a car.

OZ Aristo alloys
RS4/VW Phaeton brake system
3.2 V6 Phaeton engine
Seebring/VW exhaust system
H&R suspension with Blistien shocks/dampers
Haldex 4WD

Its all good [email]sh@t![/email]

[img]images/graemlins/biggrin3.gif[/img]

Riz

[Nordschleife]

Sorry have to dissagree there. Very few owners I know of M3/M5s in the UK have had rechips and only the ones that do track days seem to upgrade the brakes. A few have done exhausts mainly for better sound. Everybody knows that engine mods on these cars are pointless as they really do not bring much improvement compared to the cost. Also in UK most people are concerned about losing their warranty as BMW dealers are quite strict on this. May of course be different in other countries but if you did a poll on BM3W for instance you would get quite a very high proportion with no mods.

John
Obviously UK owners you know don't drive these cars the way they are capable of being driven, perhaps you know too many LOMBARDS?
The M3's brakes are notoriously BAD, the standard design even causes the bearings to run out of true as they heat up.
Lets put this in context, here, in Germany, the M3CSL is condemned by its owners as too slow, really no joke; if you have an FIA license BMW will rechip the car for you, so you only get passed some of the time by stationwagon drivers.

It seems that Britain used to be a great place for cars, but no longer, you either have to go to Yorkshire/Wales/Scotland or to the track to have fun.
I'm not winding you up, but the view from Bayern is quite different as we are able to legally explore far more of our cars' capabilities than those who life in more crowded and over-legislated countries.

R+C

[Nordschleife]

I disagree also..... BMW M cars have always been engineered well.... ok maybe some people find some issues with them but as a whole package its a very good car....

Take my R32 for example... in my eyes the standard exhaust, suspension and engine are second to none.... very good for a standard package on a car.

OZ Aristo alloys
RS4/VW Phaeton brake system
3.2 V6 Phaeton engine
Seebring/VW exhaust system
H&R suspension with Blistien shocks/dampers
Haldex 4WD

Its all good [email]sh@t![/email]

[img]images/graemlins/biggrin3.gif[/img]

Riz

Riz
I wasn't aware that your R32 was a product of BMW????? Nor is anybody else.
Your statement about how good the standard package is, is totally refuted by your list of modifications.
But hell, who said you had to be logical?

R+C

[Riz_RS4]

Riz
I wasn't aware that your R32 was a product of BMW????? Nor is anybody else.
Your statement about how good the standard package is, is totally refuted by your list of modifications.
But hell, who said you had to be logical?

Its was just a example that some cars out of the factory can be very good packages which require some or no modifications, which i feel that the M3 does not require modifications.. its only my opinion which i have gathered from people, footage and literature etc.

Your statement about how good the standard package is, is totally refuted by your list of modifications.

I`m sure others feel the same way about the R32, its a good package as standard, all the "modifications" which you refer to are as far as i can gather standard on the R32.... so in theory there are no mod`s.... which is why i class the R32 a good package just like the BMW M3.

who said you had to be logical?

If everyone was logical why try and spends loads of money making a car better and faster blah blah blah... why not just buy a good car to begin with! [img]images/graemlins/tung2.gif[/img]

Only my opnion`s, remember everybody is entitled to their own opinions, some like to mod and some dont...

i.e. the standard M3 brakes are good but maybe not good after 10 laps around a track? who knows? remember each person also tollerates different amounts of performance levels..... the ones who push the M3 harder might need better brakes? at the end of the day its NOT a racing or track car..... its a road car and thats how it should be judged! M3 = [img]images/graemlins/biggrin3.gif[/img]

Game over..... [img]images/graemlins/tung2.gif[/img]

Riz [img]images/graemlins/thumbs.gif[/img]

[PP]

Its was just a example that some cars out of the factory can be very good packages which require some or no modifications, which i feel that the M3 does not require modifications..
[quote] i.e. the standard M3 brakes are good but maybe not good after 10 laps around a track? who knows? remember each person also tollerates different amounts of performance levels..... the ones who push the M3 harder might need better brakes? at the end of the day its NOT a racing or track car..... its a road car and thats how it should be judged! M3 = [quote]

I have to agree qith Riz - 99.5 or so of the M3 owners would never 'run out' of brakes. I used to drive E30 M's round the 'Ring for many years, using standard discs but race pads. The brakes were more than adequate to achieve a time of 9 mins. Better brakes would have shaved a few seconds off, drilling my windscreen wipers would have helped, smaller mirrors would have helped,different diff ratios, varying angle of spoiler, blocking the centre of the grill would have helped, filling engine oil to the minimum would have helped etc etc - but at the end of the days, it is horses for courses and the standard M3, R32 etc are more than adequate for hotlaps round the 'Ring - but 10 hotlaps? No way Jose - Nordschleife is then right. A friend at BMW Motorsport once told me " You can make your M car different, but better? Only if it suits you and your purpose [img]images/graemlins/nodder.gif[/img]

[JohnH]

John
Obviously UK owners you know don't drive these cars the way they are capable of being driven, perhaps you know too many LOMBARDS?
The M3's brakes are notoriously BAD, the standard design even causes the bearings to run out of true as they heat up.
Lets put this in context, here, in Germany, the M3CSL is condemned by its owners as too slow, really no joke; if you have an FIA license BMW will rechip the car for you, so you only get passed some of the time by stationwagon drivers.

It seems that Britain used to be a great place for cars, but no longer, you either have to go to Yorkshire/Wales/Scotland or to the track to have fun.
I'm not winding you up, but the view from Bayern is quite different as we are able to legally explore far more of our cars' capabilities than those who life in more crowded and over-legislated countries.

R+C


Sorry to disagree but have owned M3/M5 and RS4 and out of the box in standard form the M3/M5 are better drivers cars than the RS4. However the huge improvement you can get fitting the RS4 short shifter and GmbH supension really improves the driving experience. Then of course the ability to easily tune the turbos only adds to its capabilities. Will be interested to see how your German friends react to the new V8 RS4 without turbos as then they will have no ability to out-tune the equivalent BMW!!

[PP]

Pradip
You seem to have forgotten all those M3 and M5 owners who rush off to have new brakes, new airboxes, rechipping, new suspension parts - BMW doesn't finish the car any better than MB or Audi - nice for the tuners, however!
R+C

You make a great point, but the tuners mainly profit from non M-cars. If that is true, and I do not know the current catalogue of Hartge, AC, Alpina,Krankenberg et al, I believe that would help to appreciate that M Cars are better out of the box than the S/RS cars from Audi.

I also accept you point that few drivers really push their cars to the limit - is it because the capabilities of the cars have improved, but not of the environment, even in Germany. [img]images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[Nordschleife]

Sorry to disagree but have owned M3/M5 and RS4 and out of the box in standard form the M3/M5 are better drivers cars than the RS4. However the huge improvement you can get fitting the RS4 short shifter and GmbH supension really improves the driving experience. Then of course the ability to easily tune the turbos only adds to its capabilities. Will be interested to see how your German friends react to the new V8 RS4 without turbos as then they will have no ability to out-tune the equivalent BMW!!

John
I didn't say anything about Audis, RS4s or any other brand. I merely pointed out that BMWs are NOT immune from the need to be modified to make them good cars to drive.
A well sorted M3 CSL is a delight to drive, but, for German conditions it isn't fast enough.

R+C

[PP]

I merely pointed out that BMWs are NOT immune from the need to be modified to make them good cars to drive.
A well sorted M3 CSL is a delight to drive, but, for German conditions it isn't fast enough.

R+C

That's why a stock GT3 is such good value - I am saving up frantically at the moment [img]images/graemlins/nodder.gif[/img]

[johneroberts]

Hate tp disapoint you Pradip, but its slow compaired to my RS4, and hey this is an Audi site, who give a sh1t bout beamers anyway [img]images/graemlins/<beep>_you.gif[/img] [img]images/graemlins/flame.gif[/img]suit on
[img]images/graemlins/biggrin3.gif[/img]
jr

[Thorney]

All IMO of course but.........

RS4

Needs, shortshifter, uprated suspension and Milltek to make it drive/handle/sound as it should.

R32
Needs Milltek (and I mean needs, the standard system sounds crap and drones like a bastard at 4k)

M3
Needs brakes and Milltek.

Ergo, standard they all need work only some more than others.

[Joshie]

Hate tp disapoint you Pradip, but its slow compaired to my RS4, and hey this is an Audi site, who give a sh1t bout beamers anyway [img]images/graemlins/<beep>_you.gif[/img] [img]images/graemlins/flame.gif[/img]suit on
[img]images/graemlins/biggrin3.gif[/img]
jr

Said like a true Audi convert JR but although your newly (more highly modded) RS4 will no doubt be a rocket are you really saying that it will be faster around the track than a GT3?

[Joshie]

All IMO of course but.........

RS4

Needs, shortshifter, uprated suspension and Milltek to make it drive/handle/sound as it should.

R32
Needs Milltek (and I mean needs, the standard system sounds crap and drones like a bastard at 4k)

M3
Needs brakes and Milltek.

Ergo, standard they all need work only some more than others.

Nice one - but I think some mods are worthwhile as well as being absolutely essential in order to exploit the full performance potential - like the GmbH suspension, full milltek with remap and brakes (which you forgot to mention) for the RS4 - and the brakes for the M3.

Other mods are superficial - for example some M3 / R32 owners have changed the exhaust to make it sound better but what is the point if the car doesn't perform better?

[Riz_RS4]

but what is the point if the car doesn't perform better?

some people just like more noise i suppose... me personally will be keeping mine standard..... 241bhp / 320Nm is more than enough for the busy urban streets around here. [img]images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

The RS4 could have been so much better if quattro did a little more reasearch but what has happened has happened....

The M3 CSL is amazing... went to have another look at one today..... [img]images/graemlins/bowdown.gif[/img]

The new M5 is going to be a killer! The BMW M cars seem to be getting better and better these days..... lets hope quattro GmbH realise they may have to focus more on driver involvment and get a fine balance.

The possibilities for tuning are endless... the R32 Supercharger / Bi-Turbo conversion is awesome but then how reliable will it actually be? [img]images/graemlins/tung2.gif[/img]

I have taken out GAP Plus insurance because the R32 is a hot car at the moment for them thieving buggers!

Riz [img]images/graemlins/thumbs.gif[/img]