M3 thrashes S4 in the wet, and beats it in the dry

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Joshie
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Re: M3 thrashes S4 in the wet, and beats it in the

Post by Joshie » Sun Sep 14, 2003 5:14 pm

Did your M3`s have 19" alloys on?
Couldn't tell - I have heard that 18" are supposed to give a better ride but not sure if it really would make that much difference
i know but i was really expecting a big gap between me and the M3.... but they just couldnt seem to pull any real big gap... they probably just lost their bottle.... but if youve got a M3 and dont have bottle you will get passed!
Hard to tell really - maybe they weren't that bothered or as you say perhaps they weren't that agressive as drivers or perhaps they were carrying 9 points [img]images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]
Dream yes..... until i get a RS car [img]images/graemlins/biggrin3.gif[/img]
Does torque make a difference? will it help a car keep up with the car infront?

Nothing wrong with dreaming.

Not sure of how relevant torque is apart from acceleration

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Re: M3 thrashes S4 in the wet, and beats it in the

Post by Riz_RS4 » Sun Sep 14, 2003 5:23 pm

Fair point....... i nearly got clocked doing 140mph [img]images/graemlins/tung2.gif[/img] so maybe the M3 drivers are taking is easy.
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Re: M3 thrashes S4 in the wet, and beats it in the

Post by Golich » Fri Sep 19, 2003 12:14 pm

I'll finish by noting that you have a standard S4. I'm sorry but that means that you do not know the full potential of your car. A chip makes a serious difference. A chip and a full exhaust system makes a stonking difference. I've not tested my 0-60 (Joshie knows why), but have no doubt that it would be under 5 seconds.

That is so true.

An interesting slightly off topic discussion I had with a friend’s brother who has just replaced his B5 S4 for the new S4. I couldn't persuade him that a chipped B5 S4 with only 305-320 bhp felted markedly quicker than his stock B6 S4. All was explained in the torque figures. With 370-380ftlbs V’s 307-310 ftlbs despite 340 something bhp.

It's the drastically improved torque that makes all the amazing difference between similar hp cars with lower torque such as the M3/B6 S4 and even the stock RS4.

Having driven the M3, B6 S4, B5 chipped S4 and very importantly the B5 RS4. I found the chipped S4 was much more responsive on acceleration than both the M3 and B6 S4 but more importantly the B5 stock RS4 didn’t feel remarkably quicker, which to some degree was a little disappointing given the 380bhp but again 300something ftlb torque.

Both the B6 S4 and the M3 were noticeably slower in the pick-up in gears upwards of 3rd than my chipped S4. Hence my dilemma to go B5 RS4 or new S4 was solved. (AMD’s chipped B6 S4 aside).

But then he said you choose the right gear for the revs. Yes, all very true, but you find you really have to work the gearbox to match the revs correctly to the gear and in the main of 90% of my daily driving, given the choice it’s so much better to simply sink the throttle in 6th and the car still takes off even at 90mph

To some extent I’ve developed a degree of mechanical sympathy when ringing a cars neck these days.

I don't know how many of you have been in the situation where you have wanted to accelerate harder but found yourself in the wrong gear. So you drop one. But the max acceleration was still just out of range and you’re left thinking do you drop one more or wait a second for the optimum revs.

The worst case of this is the Honda V tech engines. Loads of BHP no torque. I had to drop to second gear to get full power out of an accord while coming out of a fast roundabout. The car wasn't interested until it was singing past 5500 and had to be held to near 7000rpm hhmm I’m just not interested in driving like that anymore. Don’t get me wrong I drive fast, very fast on a regular basis but I don’t like holding an engine at near 6000 rpm.

With the higher torque car it's more like maybe I'll drop a gear or just plant the throtle - Woosh you're off 5300 next gear (if your running K03’s on a stock exhaust!)

With this in mind I will pay much more attention to a cars torque from now on than the quoted hp.

Chipped RS4 Ooooo that’s got to be so impressive!

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Re: M3 thrashes S4 in the wet, and beats it in the

Post by Golich » Fri Sep 19, 2003 12:21 pm

Ooops looks like I missed the second page of posts again upon writing my post above..

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Re: M3 thrashes S4 in the wet, and beats it in the

Post by jeffw » Fri Sep 19, 2003 1:19 pm

With this in mind I will pay much more attention to a cars torque from now on than the quoted hp.

480 lb/ft do you [img]images/graemlins/nodder.gif[/img]

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Re: M3 thrashes S4 in the wet, and beats it in the

Post by Joshie » Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:41 pm

Jeff, you're all torque you are [img]images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Re: M3 thrashes S4 in the wet, and beats it in the

Post by jeffw » Fri Sep 19, 2003 5:35 pm

[img]images/graemlins/1syellow1.gif[/img] [img]images/graemlins/roflmao.gif[/img]

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Re: M3 thrashes S4 in the wet, and beats it in the

Post by Dippy » Sat Sep 20, 2003 11:39 am

But then he said you choose the right gear for the revs.

Which goes to show that he still doesn't understand the issue. Remember that like quoted bhp, the quoted torque is a PEAK figure. Since cars without variable transmission have to constantly change their revs in order to accelerate, the engine is only at its peak torque for a short time during each gearchange.

So the torque curve is even more important. On normally aspirated cars the torque curve is roughly a triangle. On turbocharged cars it is much flatter - remember that Audi quoted the stock S4 as 400Nm from 1850 rpm to 3600 rpm (IIRC). The disadvantage of the turbo is its lag: Below about 2000 rpm the B5 S4 will have less torque than the B6.

So, as you pointed out, it's the true daily driving characteristics that govern the strength of the engine. Whilst the M3 and B6 S4 might do well in sprints, on the open road and on the track, when your driving involves lots of gearchanges and the revs dropping below 3000 rpm, the massive torque advantage of the B5 S4 and RS4 wins (assuming you have a short-shift that is!).
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Re: M3 thrashes S4 in the wet, and beats it in the

Post by Riz_RS4 » Sat Sep 27, 2003 10:44 pm

Nice M3 and S4 showcase clip off Motorvision! In German language though. [img]images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]
Motorvision M3 & S4
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Re: M3 thrashes S4 in the wet, and beats it in the dry

Post by JamesB » Mon Sep 29, 2003 6:30 pm


Wouln't a better comparison be:
Volvo V70R AWD vs. M-B C32 AMG vs. Audi S4 Avant


I know I'm going back a few posts on this one but Top Gear mag have just done this exact test and they put the S4 on top [img]images/graemlins/1syellow1.gif[/img]
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Re: M3 thrashes S4 in the wet, and beats it in the dry

Post by Gareth » Tue Sep 30, 2003 10:10 am

Not surprised that the S4 won that little test really.

I mean a Volvo FFS! [img]images/graemlins/soapbox.gif[/img]
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Re: M3 thrashes S4 in the wet, and beats it in the

Post by daddyjohal » Sat Dec 20, 2003 10:29 pm


I briefly read an M3 CSL vs Porche 911 (something) vs Impreza STi import in one of the mags. I was only reading between the lines, but the M3 seemed to come off worst. For the price, the Impreza came off best. But for those who have owned any Impreza will surely agree, there are plenty of reasons to pay all that extra money for fine German engineering compared to the "cheap and cheerful" engineering of the Subaru.

The truth is that cars like the M3 and Impreza are ONLY better than a comparable S4 for the best drivers who can drive them at their limit. However for the average driver, the S4 can be driven safely near its limit, whereas the others cannot. As someone who has crashed an Impreza (yes I'm an average driver) I know what I'm saying.

sure there are reasons to switch from an Impreza to an S4, but none of those reasons are to do with sheer performance and handling capabilities. I owned two Imprezas before switching to an E36 M3 and now to my S4 Biturbo. Not quite sure what u mean by cheap and cheerful engineering on the Subaru apart from the awful interior and wafer thin (hence light) exterior panels. Otherwise the overall reliability and mechanical build quality completely blows the S4 away - not convinced? then just read the numerous complaints regarding various bits and bobs going pop on stock and modded S4s. Compare this to virtually faultless reliability of Subarus and Mitsubishis (as backed up by years of successful JD Power surveys). As far as handling and performance goes, the S4 doesn't stand a chance against Subaru and Mitsubishi. Consider this - a Mitsubishi Evo with full manufacturer 3 year warranty with 450bhp and a shed load of torque for less than £40 fully kitted out, capable of 0-60 in less than 4 secs and 0-100 in under 9 seconds. Both the Impreza and Mitsubishi are lighter, more nimble and handle better than the S4 (the vast majority of motoring 'experts' agree), so they are much easier to drive 'on the limit'. The reason i switched form the Impreza to the M3 was simply because the Impreza was too easy to drive near the limit and i wanted something that would be more of a challenge. Unfortunately it wasn't the most reliable car in the world so it went.

Why the S4? Well it's a lovely car to be in every day, has a beautiful interior with a shed load of refinements, it's very discrete and it's nearly as fast as a Impreza/Evo. Basically the Scooby is the better performance car but the S4 has it licked as an all round every day car.

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Re: M3 thrashes S4 in the wet, and beats it in the

Post by installer69 » Mon Dec 29, 2003 10:25 am

I had an M3 before my S4.

It was my first rear wheel drive car.

I ended up in a field.

It went.
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Re: M3 thrashes S4 in the wet, and beats it in the

Post by Joshie » Mon Dec 29, 2003 1:04 pm

I had an M3 before my S4.

It was my first rear wheel drive car.

I ended up in a field.

It went.

Sure the handling of the M3 is very neutral and very easy to provoke oversteer although this is reigned in with DSC engaged. Without DSC the car needs an experienced and skilled driver to get the best out of it including broadsiding and balancing the car near the limit. I'm not suggesting that you are not a good driver and I know how easy it is to loose control myslef - just trying to draw a distinction between the two cars.

The S4 understeers although it is possible to power slide it with all four wheels spinning (great fun too) but even under these conditions the car is very safe indeed because the handling is designed to be that way. That's probably why loads of people have modified the suspension to give a more neutral (and superior) characteristic.

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Re: M3 thrashes S4 in the wet, and beats it in the

Post by daddyjohal » Mon Dec 29, 2003 10:21 pm

I had an M3 before my S4.

It was my first rear wheel drive car.

I ended up in a field.

It went.

Sure the handling of the M3 is very neutral and very easy to provoke oversteer although this is reigned in with DSC engaged. Without DSC the car needs an experienced and skilled driver to get the best out of it including broadsiding and balancing the car near the limit. I'm not suggesting that you are not a good driver and I know how easy it is to loose control myslef - just trying to draw a distinction between the two cars.

The S4 understeers although it is possible to power slide it with all four wheels spinning (great fun too) but even under these conditions the car is very safe indeed because the handling is designed to be that way. That's probably why loads of people have modified the suspension to give a more neutral (and superior) characteristic.

my S4 does mildly understeer, but i can also have plenty of fun by making it oversteer. rather than use the handbrake, just get the car on the limit on a bend and sharply take your foot off the gas. this will give you some nice lift off oversteer, but just be ready with the steering wheel to catch it when it goes.

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