Hi,
Interesting thread. After reading several threads on changing the ATF to prolong the life of the box I thought I would do mine even though my car has only 25k miles. However, it was sat with virtually no use for 2 yrs and it is also brutally hot out here so I went for it. Took it to Audi dealer and checked they knew how to do it (fill it by going through the gears and monitoring the temperature etc) but the service manager said that in his opinion, if there is nothing wrong then don't touch it as he did a training session in Audi Germany on these tranmissions (01L) and they said leave them as changing the ATF will cause more problems than it tries to solve.
Anyway, I went ahead with it back in May, I dont know how dirty the AFT was but it did run a little smoother afterwards.
One month after I plugged in VAGCOM and got a fault code - P0741 Torque Converter stuck open. I checked the potential causes and took it back to the dealer who checked the fluid level which needed about 1 extra litre (not sure if this is normal or could have caused it) and the manager said if the top up did not solve it then it would be a new TC. The fault came back and I have got a second opinion from a specialist who rebuilds gearboxes every day and he said it will need a new TC (hence my other thread). Apparently the fault code P0741 is common and means either the TC seal has gone or the clutch plate has failed/detached.
The big niggle is whether the change of ATF caused it to happen; or the problem was looming and it just made it happen more quickly (ie the flush of ATF dislodged a seal or something); or the slightly low level of ATF caused it due to it not being filled enough. I have no way to prove either way......
The independent expert did say to me he recommends changing the ATF every 2 yrs or 30k miles but did say that trying to fill one while it runs at less than 45 degs (as per procedure) is wishful thinking when ambient here is 45 degs in the summer.
Bit worried about gearbox oil change now...
The more I read these posts, the more I wonder how risky doing it is. Now, I know I said I did the change on my old A6 4.2 and, everything was fine afterwards but I will never know how long it stayed fine for as I sold the car only a few weeks later. For all I know, it could still be running smooth as ice right now.. or not.
Some of you reading this may shake your heads in disbelief, but I think I've changed my mind; I'm gonna leave it as it is for now and only change it if the 'box gets lumpy. False economy? Maybe, but the car only has 21k on the clock and the gearchanges are seamless.
Since I know how the gearbox feels when all-good (i.e. now), I will also know when it isn't (i.e. starts playing up or even hints at being different) and I think only then will I endeavour to carry out the DIY fluid change. Like I said, decisions, decisions..
Heyyyy, just call me Mr. Fickle from now on..
Some of you reading this may shake your heads in disbelief, but I think I've changed my mind; I'm gonna leave it as it is for now and only change it if the 'box gets lumpy. False economy? Maybe, but the car only has 21k on the clock and the gearchanges are seamless.
Since I know how the gearbox feels when all-good (i.e. now), I will also know when it isn't (i.e. starts playing up or even hints at being different) and I think only then will I endeavour to carry out the DIY fluid change. Like I said, decisions, decisions..
Heyyyy, just call me Mr. Fickle from now on..
I'm not sure if that's the most logical thing to do. If you start getting symptoms then the chances are that the damage is already done. The gearbox guy I spoke to said that the ATF should be changed regularly and in that case the box should remain bullet proof.
I know what you mean though, I'm biting my nails about tomorrow. I'm definitely going to do it, though. I can't bear the thought of sludge in the box.
I know what you mean though, I'm biting my nails about tomorrow. I'm definitely going to do it, though. I can't bear the thought of sludge in the box.
Daytona RS6 C5 Avant. Viper'd, Billies, Waggers, MTM box brain, C6 stoppers, xcarlink, R8 coolant cap (woohoo)
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
I know what you're saying, but Paul (above) only had 25k on the clock - so that's what got me thinking about the potential risks. Surely at 25k there wouldn't have been any damage in the first place to speak of.
Of course, there is always the possibility that these post-fluid change failures were the direct result of something not being done quite right; maybe the little rubber O-ring wasn't seated quite right; maybe the gasket seal was not 100%; maybe the oil level was just shy of what it should have been.
There were a fair few variables to consider when I did the change on my A6 4.2 - for instance, getting the damn oil in in the first place - no easy task having to force it upwards against gravity (we used a centrifugal water-pump connected to a variable-speed drill and with VERY careful trigger control) and then running the car for a while to get the new stuff circulating (as when it is up in the air, the TC goes nuts and halts the wheels) and then just keeping on repeating that until the oil just won't top-up anymore. Also, making certain the little seals were seated right and then there is the main gasket seal and drain plug washer being new and not re-used. If any of these are not done absolutely and completely perfectly, the 'box will get trashed, and quickly. So hence the huge responsibilty of undertaking such a job. I was only confident to do it with the help of another chap who had previously done two: his fathers S8 and someone elses. We worked through it logically and methodically. It took us a whole day and alot of that was waiting for the old oil to drain out - ideally, this should be allowed to drain out overnight.
It has to be one of the toughest decisions I've ever had to contemplate. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.. You just know it's one of those where you wish you could take a peek at the alternate timeline from the branch at which you make the decision to see what the outcome would have been. If only it was that easy!!!
I strongly advise anyone considering a transmission fluid change to take it to an expert and even then one who has performed it previously and with a good track record. I have no idea whether the procedure I used to do my A6 4.2 would be the same on an RS6, so do not attempt to replicate the procedures I have mentioned above - RS6 or otherwise. Like I said, this is merely how we did it on the day and should not be used as a guide to performing the procedure by oneself or anyone else for that matter.
Of course, there is always the possibility that these post-fluid change failures were the direct result of something not being done quite right; maybe the little rubber O-ring wasn't seated quite right; maybe the gasket seal was not 100%; maybe the oil level was just shy of what it should have been.
There were a fair few variables to consider when I did the change on my A6 4.2 - for instance, getting the damn oil in in the first place - no easy task having to force it upwards against gravity (we used a centrifugal water-pump connected to a variable-speed drill and with VERY careful trigger control) and then running the car for a while to get the new stuff circulating (as when it is up in the air, the TC goes nuts and halts the wheels) and then just keeping on repeating that until the oil just won't top-up anymore. Also, making certain the little seals were seated right and then there is the main gasket seal and drain plug washer being new and not re-used. If any of these are not done absolutely and completely perfectly, the 'box will get trashed, and quickly. So hence the huge responsibilty of undertaking such a job. I was only confident to do it with the help of another chap who had previously done two: his fathers S8 and someone elses. We worked through it logically and methodically. It took us a whole day and alot of that was waiting for the old oil to drain out - ideally, this should be allowed to drain out overnight.
It has to be one of the toughest decisions I've ever had to contemplate. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.. You just know it's one of those where you wish you could take a peek at the alternate timeline from the branch at which you make the decision to see what the outcome would have been. If only it was that easy!!!
I strongly advise anyone considering a transmission fluid change to take it to an expert and even then one who has performed it previously and with a good track record. I have no idea whether the procedure I used to do my A6 4.2 would be the same on an RS6, so do not attempt to replicate the procedures I have mentioned above - RS6 or otherwise. Like I said, this is merely how we did it on the day and should not be used as a guide to performing the procedure by oneself or anyone else for that matter.
It's the same deal with your engine oil, though. If you take off the sump to clear the sludge out and don't get it sealed back up properly, the consequences are disasterous. The consequences of not changing your engine oil is equally disasterous.
The difference being that you can easily check the level of your engine oil and you've got all sorts of sensors and warnings if it goes wrong.
Other manufacturers who use the same basic box in their cars have a schedule for changing the ATF, but not Audi. Why would Mercedes recommend regular ATF changes on lesser powered cars if it wasn't necessary (and if they weren't able to do them properly)?
I saw a ZF document somewhere - possibly on here - that said the "sealed for life" boxes should still have their oil changed if they were used a lot on the motorway or under harsh conditions... 450HP is pretty harsh.
Have a read of this:
http://www.audipages.com/Tech_Articles/ ... icing.html
and this:
http://www.audipages.com/Tech_Articles/ ... oting.html
The difference being that you can easily check the level of your engine oil and you've got all sorts of sensors and warnings if it goes wrong.
Other manufacturers who use the same basic box in their cars have a schedule for changing the ATF, but not Audi. Why would Mercedes recommend regular ATF changes on lesser powered cars if it wasn't necessary (and if they weren't able to do them properly)?
I saw a ZF document somewhere - possibly on here - that said the "sealed for life" boxes should still have their oil changed if they were used a lot on the motorway or under harsh conditions... 450HP is pretty harsh.
Have a read of this:
http://www.audipages.com/Tech_Articles/ ... icing.html
and this:
http://www.audipages.com/Tech_Articles/ ... oting.html
Daytona RS6 C5 Avant. Viper'd, Billies, Waggers, MTM box brain, C6 stoppers, xcarlink, R8 coolant cap (woohoo)
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
Yes, that is a very good guide and I think the guy that helped me used that very guide as a reference when he did his first couple of changes. I was just really making the point that you do have to be pretty damn careful if you do go the DIY route.
Think I'll ask him what he thinks and whether he'd help me out again. I know that when he did his old man's S8 at only 40k, the oil was as black as the ace of spades.
OH GOD!! Think I'll just flip a coin and be done with it..
Think I'll ask him what he thinks and whether he'd help me out again. I know that when he did his old man's S8 at only 40k, the oil was as black as the ace of spades.
OH GOD!! Think I'll just flip a coin and be done with it..
Last edited by MoRS6+ on Sun Aug 09, 2009 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Quite interesting that. I wonder how Mercedes owners get on in this respect?? Are they ZF boxes as well? If it is standard procedure on these cars, I bet the techs have got the procedure down to a tee!Shoppinit wrote:..Other manufacturers who use the same basic box in their cars have a schedule for changing the ATF, but not Audi. Why would Mercedes recommend regular ATF changes on lesser powered cars if it wasn't necessary (and if they weren't able to do them properly)?
MIght be worth looking into. the 5HP24 box is used in BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar and Land Rover vehicles. I've been looking to try and find a source to back up what I said about them specifiying intervals, but I can't find anything. I'm sure I didn't dream it though.
Daytona RS6 C5 Avant. Viper'd, Billies, Waggers, MTM box brain, C6 stoppers, xcarlink, R8 coolant cap (woohoo)
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
I too read this thread with interest.
I brought my 2003 RS6 with 48k on the clock a month ago and was considering getting the oil changed just to be sure. I have no idea if it has been done before. I was thinking of having it done at MRC later this year at the same time as a map.
Got me thinking now.
I brought my 2003 RS6 with 48k on the clock a month ago and was considering getting the oil changed just to be sure. I have no idea if it has been done before. I was thinking of having it done at MRC later this year at the same time as a map.
Got me thinking now.
Well, I've just left my car at Audi. I'm definitely doing this. Thinking about all that sludge in the box has started to affect my sleep 
I spoke to the workshop manager to voice my concerns and he was completely at ease about changing the oil.
Gareth, why don't you call MRC and ask them what they think?
I spoke to the workshop manager to voice my concerns and he was completely at ease about changing the oil.
Gareth, why don't you call MRC and ask them what they think?
Daytona RS6 C5 Avant. Viper'd, Billies, Waggers, MTM box brain, C6 stoppers, xcarlink, R8 coolant cap (woohoo)
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
Cool. Let us know.
I asked audi to keep the filter and oil to show me. I'll try and get some photos up.
Another part of the problem is only being able to change half the oil each time. If this goes OK, I'll do another oil change at next service to get 75% of the old stuff out.
I asked audi to keep the filter and oil to show me. I'll try and get some photos up.
Another part of the problem is only being able to change half the oil each time. If this goes OK, I'll do another oil change at next service to get 75% of the old stuff out.
Daytona RS6 C5 Avant. Viper'd, Billies, Waggers, MTM box brain, C6 stoppers, xcarlink, R8 coolant cap (woohoo)
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
I recommend changing the oil every 50k , At Least you get a good insight into the box condition with the sump off..
Unit 20
0151 3366888
The northwest's only dedicated 'RS' repair centre.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/unit-20/104343529619713
0151 3366888
The northwest's only dedicated 'RS' repair centre.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/unit-20/104343529619713
Rob at Camberley will be doing mine tomorrow along with a service. Today its having the DRC replaced
After reading this thread, I'm now slightly apprehensive as to the outcome. I dont know whether it was done at 40K and as it now has 80K, there is probably a fair bit of sludge etc thats built up. Flushing it through could highlight problem - leaking seals etc. Bit like if you flush through your central heating system at home and then discover all the leaks which were previously sealed by the sludge and the limescale!!!!
But I'm sure its better to change the oil and find problems and fix them early rather than wait for the box to fail and need a complete rebuild - or maybe im just convincing myself!!!
After reading this thread, I'm now slightly apprehensive as to the outcome. I dont know whether it was done at 40K and as it now has 80K, there is probably a fair bit of sludge etc thats built up. Flushing it through could highlight problem - leaking seals etc. Bit like if you flush through your central heating system at home and then discover all the leaks which were previously sealed by the sludge and the limescale!!!!
But I'm sure its better to change the oil and find problems and fix them early rather than wait for the box to fail and need a complete rebuild - or maybe im just convincing myself!!!
How'd yours go, jd?
I picked mine up yesterday and all seems to be good. The oil that came out was obviously in good condition - almost clear. And the filter was clean, too - at least from what I coudl tell from the outside.
I haven't really noticed any difference in the operation of the box. Maybe, possibly it's a little bit smoother, but that's probably just the placebo effect. Before hand there was a very slight snick as it went into drive. Doesn't do this anymore. Again, I'm starting to doubt the quality of my memory!
In any case, I'll keep an eye on it and if all is well I'll change the ATF at every service from now on.
Encouragingly, the workshop manager said mine was in excellent condition mechanically which is always nice to hear.
I picked mine up yesterday and all seems to be good. The oil that came out was obviously in good condition - almost clear. And the filter was clean, too - at least from what I coudl tell from the outside.
I haven't really noticed any difference in the operation of the box. Maybe, possibly it's a little bit smoother, but that's probably just the placebo effect. Before hand there was a very slight snick as it went into drive. Doesn't do this anymore. Again, I'm starting to doubt the quality of my memory!
In any case, I'll keep an eye on it and if all is well I'll change the ATF at every service from now on.
Encouragingly, the workshop manager said mine was in excellent condition mechanically which is always nice to hear.
Daytona RS6 C5 Avant. Viper'd, Billies, Waggers, MTM box brain, C6 stoppers, xcarlink, R8 coolant cap (woohoo)
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
///M3 E46 | XC90 (V8, natch) | Passat GTE | RR Classic V8 flapper
"The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at and repair."
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