Fuel adatives....

[silverRS4]

Bore scope? Take the airbox off? Heck, you're half way to removing the entire manifold. Just take it off so we can post more pics of cruddy valves. We should have a contest..or at least start an album on Photobucket.

[ArthurPE]

I'm thinking of something like this...between the cyclone seperator and the intake...
share the existing drain tube to the sump and use the optional check valve...

http://www.mann-hummel.com/group/upload ... UCmOK5.pdf

has anybody noticed oil where the cyclone return line dumps into the intake tract?

are the valves located next to this connection point worse than the ones further away?

[RI_RS4]

Silver, where are you located?

[RI_RS4]

Arthur,

I do apologize for being abrupt and direct. The fact is, I have measured oil flashpoint drop from a Virgin oil value of 420F to 280F in the course of one day. Here is a test sequence I ran to measure dilution;

fresh oil change
143 miles driving at extremely gentle throttle - 365F (.75%)
51 Miles driving with high throttle up to 3/4 full - 345F (1.1%)
50 mile driving with alternating wide open throttle and zero throttle - 280F (1.65%)
40 minutes idling in the driveway - 280F (1.65%)

Oil was then changed and sampled as follows under normal operation:
537 miles - 270F (1.7%)
1086 miles - 280F (1.65%)
1633 miles - 270F (1.7%
2923 miles - 235F (2%)

These miles were 90% highway miles when I was running Motul 8100 E-tech 0W40.

Measurements were made by Terry Dyson's contract lab with ISO-17025 certification to the ASTM ISDO0707 - InterLaboratory Cross Check Program. Flash point measurement were performed using the Pensky-Martens closed cup method. Fuel dilution measurements were performed using the Fourier transform infrared spectroscopy method, which has very good accuracy and repeatability.

Several months earlier I took a UOA and Virgin sample of Elf Excellium LDX 5W40 oil from my engine and sent it to Terry's lab and to Blackstone. Both labs correctly identified the Virgin oil flashpoint to be 420F. Dyson's lab measured a UOA flashpoint of 320F, whereas Blackstone measured a flashpoint of 420F, identical to the virgin oil, after 1300 miles of service. Since then I've learned that Blackstone uses an open cup flashpoint method, which has low sensitivity and typically under reports flashpoint. They base their fuel dilution "guess" on this flawed flashpoint measurement. Further investigation of other owner's oil samples processed at both Blackstone and Dyson have shown a consistent problem with flashpoint and fuel dilution measurement accuracy. This is further confirmed by trace fuel elements in the oil which show up in oil analysis in some regions, and are secondary indicators of fuel in the oil.

Here is a representative sample of some of the worst oil flashpoint measurements we've seen in this engine:

Vehicle Mileage Mileage on Oil Flashpoint (F)
42670 ............... 4993 ................ 280
30291 ............... 6900 ................ 280
10059 ............... 1086 ................ 280
7242 ............... 4175 ................ 275
9090 ............... 3978 ................ 270
14433 ............... 3803 ................ 270
10606 ............... 1633 ................ 270
9510 ............... 537 ................ 270
12803 ............... 2803 ................ 265
22030 ............... 3103 ................ 260
14930 ............... 10130 ................ 260
4958 ............... 2757 ................ 260
11033 ............... 2453 ................ 255
7177 ............... 2205 ................ 255
53500 ............... 10000 ................ 250
5633 ............... 2487 ................ 250
11896 ............... 2923 ................ 235
12100 ............... 7000 ................ 230
7770 ............... 2600 ................ 220

I think you'll agree that these flashpoints are out of the norm.

There is one other variable that I have not stated. Fuel formulation has a strong impact on the total dilution and flashpoint.

[SR71]

Hey Arthur,

Why not get your oil analysed at the same time?

I fancy something like this:

http://www.bshspeedshop.com/store/home.php?cat=499

Whats your take on them? The 2.0 TFSI community is using them, presumably firstly for its charge cooling, but secondly for its steam cleaning properties...

if all valves look like the pic posted, I agree there is a problem...but imho it is not the oil or fuel dilution but the mechanism for seperating the oil mist/vapor from the crankcase gas...

But why the excessive misting/volatisation - (although strictly theseare two different things aren't they?)? Doesn't the fuel dilution theory suggests a plausible mechanism?

I don't subscribe to the idea Audi purposely designed a separator that doesn't work, but I can subscribe to the idea that there is a mechanism at work in the car that they never consdiered at the design stage which explains why the system is failing to do its job...

maybe the oil is being cooked off, but I doubt it, you would see the oil level drop quickly...and all over the back of the car...lol

Thing is my car does drink oil at the rate of 1L/2000 miles. And it smokes on start-up.

I'm going to borrow a bore scope, pull the airbox/TB and see what mine look like...if I can get to them...

Agree with SilverRS4, open her up! Either way, I'll be interested to see whats going on in there...

Out of curiousity, the flaps in the inlet (I've never seen them - but I presume they move?), aren't they redundant in US cars if your cars do not operate in stratified mode? I understand they're there to introduce "tumble" to the flow which ensures a particular flow pattern into the cylinder during the compression stroke in lean burn mode...

[PetrolDave]

The spray only takes 5 minutes, get on it man!

Someone mentioned an easy to access bung of some kind - any details?

PD - you have mail

Thanks - now just need an empty road (in my dreams!) and time when my boss and my wife will allow me to "play".

[Marcus-RS4]

Is the bung location a secret?

I have just bought some Wynns cleaner, but not the specific GDI one, its their generic 'injector intake / carb cleaner' spray (more than likely the same or similar?) obv I need to be careful of the MAF - any tips?

[RI_RS4]

It's best to schedule a fresh oil change right after you use the intake valve cleaner. The chemicals used in the cleaner are rather strong. Some will inevitably find their way into the crankcase oil. Experience with other high strength fuel system cleaners is that it will cause increased soft bearing wear. You don't want that stuff staying in the engine for very long.

[pippyrips]

Is the bung location a secret?

I have just bought some Wynns cleaner, but not the specific GDI one, its their generic 'injector intake / carb cleaner' spray (more than likely the same or similar?) obv I need to be careful of the MAF - any tips?

Pic comes courtesy of Caldy. (Top right of the screen, the small black rubber blanking plug.)

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj12 ... G_2214.jpg

I think a cut down McDonalds straw would be a perfect fit to the aerosol nozzle. This will allow spraying through the airbox intake without getting the MAF covered.

[Andyuk911]

First dips on the FREE sample I think should go to the thread starter .. but please co-ordinate via me, as I have not sent back a note yet


There also a PDF doc with pictures, so I am just sorting how to host this ... It's 2mb ... limit here is 500Kb

Hello Andy

Thank you for your email.

We have been aware of the issues with direct injection petrol engines for a good number of years now, initially with the Mitsubishi GDi engine which was also used in some Volvo's. As you mention, manufacturers are increasingly looking towards direct injection petrol engines to lower emissions and fuel consumption, whilst increasing power.

One of the drawbacks with direct injection is that areas of the fuel system, including the inlet valves, are now completely dry. Deposits build up in these areas and with no fuel washing away these deposits, problems may occur. Our Direct Injection Power 3 (liquid & aerosol) has been developed to clean the dry and wet sides of direct injection petrol engines.

Direct Injection Power 3 Aerosol will dissolve carbon dissolve from the air-intake, throttle body and inlet valves. Mass air flow meters are un-affected by our product and the cleaning affect can improve their operation. I did a little research on Sea Foam last year, as far as I know it is not available in the UK. I believe our Direct Injection Power 3 aerosol, although not the same, is trying to achieve similar results.

I have attached some further information on our Direct Injection Power 3, including application instructions. Direct Injection Power 3 is not sold retail, but is available to our motor factor accounts, including Jayar Components, Camberley Auto Factors, S C Motor Factors.

The part numbers for the products are:
23079 Direct Injection Power 3 Aerosol
22693 Direct Injection Power 3 Liquid

If you send me your address I can arrange to send you some samples to try.

I confirm that this correspondence and the attachment can be placed on a car forum for legitimate purposes of exchanging information, and we would appreciate any feedback.

Best regards

Paul Scott
Workshop Programmes Manager (UK & Ireland)

Wynn Oil UK
Thames Court
2 Richfield Avenue
Reading, RG1 8EQ

tel: 0118 9504090
mob: 07884 361564
fax: 0118 9504001
email: pscott@wynns.uk.com
website: www.wynns.uk.com

[PetrolDave]

It's best to schedule a fresh oil change right after you use the intake valve cleaner.

I'm due a service and oil change in a month or so, so I'll hold off using the intake cleaner until a couple of days beforehand.

Thanks for the tip.

[RI_RS4]

Here's some information on the cyclonic separator:

http://www.google.com/patents?id=9p9-AA ... 23#PPA1,M1

http://www.google.com/patents?id=zuybAA ... rs#PPA1,M1

http://www.mann-hummel.com/company/inde ... rec_no=319

Look familiar

[Andyuk911]

Here is the PDF with better product info

http://uploading.com/files/46VTE4E0/DIP3EN.pdf.html

[scaghead]

pippyrips, that link on photobucket just takes you to home page mate.

[silverRS4]

ArthurPE
"has anybody noticed oil where the cyclone return line dumps into the intake"

The small yellow arrow is the exit of the cyclonic separator. This part of the separator slips into the back side (blue arrow) of the aluminum vent. The cyclone "exhaust" which still has a fair amount of oil vapor is shown by the large yellow arrow leaving the vent. The aluminum vent slips into the back side of the intake plenum (red arrow, bottom photo). Note that the intake is laying upside down. The small green arrows are coolant flow through the vent housing. The oil return line, for the collected oil to return to the sump, is not shown but is on the cyclonic separator housing.

Is the separator malfuntioning on most vehicles? Possibly, but I think its simply not capable of dealing with the high amount of oil in the RS4 crankcase air. BTW the manifold in the photo is new. Typically when the bottom cover is removed from an RS4 manifold, there is a couple ounces of oil that will drip out and there's a heavy oil film on all surfaces.