Fuel adatives....

[SR71]

Yeah I agree Petroldave but lets at least try and be scientific about this...

Can't you run a FATS on VAGCOM prior to dumping the Wynn in there and then afterwards to at least see if your airflow has improved somewhat? (http://forums.audiworld.com/s4/msgs/1715242.phtml - I'm sure you're familiar with it...)

P_G,

For me, I'm somewhat of a purist. Cost:benefit ratio, within reason, isn't the bottom line for me.

I don't like the idea of my car gradually gumming itself up. It might be that the performance deficit tails off to a constant delta if you're using a particular OCI, but because I'm in ownership for the longhaul, I'd like to try and keep the car at its performance peak...

The other thing I don't like is the notion of an Audi conspiracy along the lines of: we know the oil performance is suspect, but we reckon the performance deficit will not really manifest itself until out of OEM warranty, so it'll be down to owners to decide what they want to do at that stage...

As for remaps, well this issue is yet another nail in that coffin. What is the point in tweaking an engine which is covering itself in s**t every time you start it up?

[SR71]

RI_RS4,

OK. I've written to Terry and suggested he add my data to the database once I get round to changing it out.

The oil will have been in there for ~5000 miles so we'll see what its like. I have only ever run Titan Fuchs in there - the 5W-30.

pippyrips,

Are you going to "Wynn" your car? Perhaps not if its going to get the full treatment from MRC? £ down the drain isn't it?

But maybe we can use my car and do the Wynn + VAGCOM tests to see what it throws up - aside from a load of white smoke?

Now that I'm immobile and all...

[PetrolDave]

Yeah I agree Petroldave but lets at least try and be scientific about this...

Can't you run a FATS on VAGCOM prior to dumping the Wynn in there and then afterwards to at least see if your airflow has improved somewhat? (http://forums.audiworld.com/s4/msgs/1715242.phtml - I'm sure you're familiar with it...)

Nice idea - finding an empty enough road to do that test in the over-crowded South Coast would be a challenge though!

[SR71]

I'm sure you'll find a solution!



Use 2nd instead? That'll take you to the NSL. Keep it legal and all...

We're not really interested in the absolute numbers, only whether or not there is an improvement...

[scaghead]

guys,i must hand it to you the knowledge is immense i read each post open mouthed. i am concerned about this as everyone should be.pippyres,petroldave keep us posted on this wynns[prevention not cure] stuff.

[RI_RS4]

I've sent the following two emails off to Audi US. Y'all in the UK might want to do something of the same. I believe concerted pressure from multiple points in the world might get their attention.

Marc,

This is a photo of the intake valves of an Audi RS4 engine with only 3700 total mile on the engine. http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj12 ... G_2200.jpg

As you can see, intake valve deposits are a problem with this engine design, as I have previously stated and communicated to you as far back as January 13, 2007, which was based on our on-going research on FSI oil fuel dilution. At this point, it appears that the predictions of myself and my tribologist have been confirmed. You have a significant number of owners of FSI engines that are at risk, due to lubricants that are not capable of, nor were designed to, operate in the harsh environment of this engine.

Although the problem is one of design, and is pervasive throughout all FSI engine models, it can be mitigated through advanced lubrication and fuel additive technology. If you'd like to "stop the bleeding", you are welcome to give me a call to discuss other options, before the brand is damaged permanently.

best regards,

Scott

Marc,

It might be of interest to you that we in the worldwide Audi owner's community have now correlated the loss of top end performance, the so called power "bump" loss, that Audi RS4 owners have experienced over time, in both the US and the UK, to this intake valve oil deposit issue. I also understand that some in the R8 community have also experienced issues that are strikingly similar to these, as they should be, since the engineering is nearly equivalent.

My interest is in solving the issue in a reasonable manner, given that many vehicles are coming off of factory warranty, and given the fact that owners will be liable for any further expense in "fixing" these issues of design flaws and oil chemistry on a recurring basis.

Regards,

Scott

[pippyrips]

RI - does the Bio-Plu Injector Cleaner you and others use/d over there just help with keeping the injectors/head clean & deposit free or does it bring other benefits?

I never run my car on anything other Shell V-Power which has very good cleaning properties, does the RL cleaning give anything extra over this?

[pippyrips]

Got some of the Wynn's DIP3 liquid and aerosol from Camberley Auto Factors (nearest Wynn's distributor to me) at lunchtime, will try it when I get time.

The spray only takes 5 minutes, get on it man!

Someone mentioned an easy to access bung of some kind - any details?

PD - you have mail

[RI_RS4]

RI - does the Bio-Plu Injector Cleaner you and other use/d over there just help with keeping the injectors/head clean & deposit free or does it bring other benefits?

I never run my car on anything other Shell V-Power which has very good cleaning properties, does the RL cleaning give anything extra over this?

Yes, it does help. It provides additional upper cylinder and injector lubricity and cleans very gently in a way that is synergistic with the Shell additive chemistry. Both use amine-based chemistry that is nice to the oil. Terry's customers will receive much more information about this. I'm no chemist, and I only play Tribologist on the computer.

[Andyuk911]

I spoke and sent an email to Wynn UK asking for some proof that there product can do a 'Ronseal' ... I am waiting for a reply ..

[SR71]

I have discovered that Terry (Dyson) is related to, amongst others, James Dyson. I'm sure we all know who he is!

To this end, I have asked that he recruit him to re-design the bloody cyclonic separators on our engines...

[SR71]

More seriously, I obviously have Jeremy Hicks email/address off the back of the DRC issue, but does anyone have an email/address for the equivalent Head of Technical role here in the UK?

We might as well get this as high up the food chain as possible rather than having to filter through the appalling Audi CS system...

Caldy,

Are you chasing this up with Audi?

[chrissyr32]

JESUSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!

All i asked was a simple question to start this thread.....

Opened a right can of worms eh??

All i can say is "for god sake enjoy your car" all this talk is depressing me.

My car runs fine thats all i,m bothered about just thought a fuel additive may clean her out, not begin the debate of the century.Still informative stuff...

Strange place forums...

[SR71]

My car runs fine thats all i,m bothered about....

Yeah, but for how long?

[ArthurPE]

1.5 to 2% fuel dilution is low and pretty much typical...
in a 10 qt engine sump if the level stays the same that means you lost only 6.4 oz, 1/5th of a qt...negligible...

gas is volatile, it's vapor pressure is much lower than oil...so it 'cooks off' and is aspirated/combusted into the engine, the vapor would actually help clean the valves...ever see it spilled on hot asphalt? vaporizes very fast...

it's also got a lower density, so it passes thru the cyclone with a higher efficiency...where as the oil drops out...

I think the problem is the cyclone seperator...the cyclones don't work right, the sequencing valve, bypass valve, pressure regulating valve, something is sticking/gumming up, and not seperating the oil entrained air properly...

I'd like to see someone stick a simple baffle/filter on the output tube of the cyclone module and see if this helps...

the valves get very hot, that's why the oil cokes or 'tars' on them...

Arthur,

Sorry, you're wrong. All of these fuel dilution measurements were performed on oil that had been extracted after the engine was run at highway speeds and reached operating temperature to allow maximal burn off. Peak fuel dilution is most likely in the 3-4% range otherwise. It's possible, but unlikely that Audi and VW have both missed an obvious issue with the cyclonic separator on engines lines like the 2.0 TFSI that have been in service since 2005.

These fuel dilution levels correspond to oil flashpoint measurements of 290F down to 230F, and are not normal for most gasoline engines. (The flashpoint is the point at which oil begins to vaporize.) Given that the engine operating temperature is normally in the 230F range, on average, under spirited driving rising to 270F plus, and recognizing that the local temperatures are even higher, it is not surprising that a significant amount of oil is vaporizing, along with the fuel, with some significant percentage passing through the cyclone separators. As long as the effective condensation point (pressure/temperature) of the diluted mixture that volatizes is higher than the expected designed maximum on the separator, the oil is going to pass right through. I expect that Audi and VW engineers who contracted this design out did not account for chemical attack on the oil by aromatic hydrocarbons in the fuel.

Certainly the separator could be redesigned, but this would require that more "bad stuff" be recycled back into the oil to contaminate it.

Not only do we see this issue from fuel dilution, but also we see significant deterioration of the ZDDP tribological layers intended to protect the bearing surfaces in the engine, as evidenced by increase Fe wear during high fuel dilution and increase of the amount of free Phosphorus in the oil.

BTW, all of this was predicted by us 2 years ago through extensive oil analysis, and the experience of my consulting Tribologist.

I won't be as rude to say you are 'wrong'...just misinformed or have an agenda/vested interest in promoting the use of a non-approved oil in the RS4...

most oil flashpoints are >420 when new and >350 when at the end of life...ie, diluted...gasoline is -40F, yep minus, so at 200F+ it's long gone into a vapor/gaseous state...in other words, at any temp > -40F it naturally evaporates...this is adjusted at times with additives for various climates but is seldom >110F, the UK std is 22C or 72F...
and even though the oil in the sump is ~200F, it is much higher when in operation, before the heat is rejected thru the mass of he block, pan cooling or oil cooler...that's why the flashpoint must be >350F or so...

diesel is much higher, ~+140F...

http://www.oilanalysis.com/Backup/200003/flshfig4.jpg

you stated a dilution of 1.5 to 2%, you hypothesis that it is actually 3-4% when running?

all engines will cook the fuel off quickly, the heavier stuff is left behind....in fact there are several methods to measure dilution...
gas chromatography or measuring flashpoint and estimating the %...
the best repeatability is 0.5%...

as far as the 2%, Blackstone Labs calls <2 normal...and 3-5 worth investigating...

if all valves look like the pic posted, I agree there is a problem...but imho it is not the oil or fuel dilution but the mechanism for seperating the oil mist/vapor from the crankcase gas...

maybe the oil is being cooked off, but I doubt it, you would see the oil level drop quickly...and all over the back of the car...lol

I'm going to borrow a bore scope, pull the airbox/TB and see what mine look like...if I can get to them...