M3 thrashes S4 in the wet, and beats it in the dry

[gilb0z]

spot on mate.. good point..!!!!

[donrs4]

It seems the Quattro GmbH read this forum. Maybe Audi corporate does too.
d. [img]images/graemlins/bigwave.gif[/img]

[peterskellen]

Hi all. New to this forum (found it via www.rs6.com)...never knew there were so many like-minded people on the web! I'm no track driver, but I've had my 2.7 S4 for over 2 years and done 80,000 miles in that time, so I know a little!

Yes I read this article too. Obviously written by someone who would do anything to ensure the M3 came out on top! The thing is, in "real world" situations, how many times have you come up against someone who can drive like that (or even WILL drive like that)on normal roads? Pitching 2 similarly skilled drivers in said cars against eachother on normal roads, especially in the wet, I reckon the S4 would cream it, easy.

Having said that, as someone else has mentioned, it does annoy me that, given the fact that Audi had at least 2 years after the release of the M3 to deliver the new S4, they couldn't match it's straight line performance. People who say the 2 cars are aimed at different buyers and are not direct competitors I think are misguided; after all, funny how the S4 develops 1 more bhp than the beemer.

A real world situation happened to me the other week which summed up exactly why I'm not 100% convinced about buying the new model (and this is without worrying about the better fuel consumption on the M3). Anyone from the UK might know the A404 junction with the M4 (northbound). There's 2 sets of lights before you reach the slip onto the M4, coming from the A404. I was waiting, minding my own business, at the first set, and wasn't aware of the car that had just pulled up next to me on my right. The lights went green, a big roar of engine noise, and an E46 M3 shot up to the next lights, which don't change immediately, so by that time I'd decided to have a go and see what his car was saying round the corner onto the slip road. He was on the outside line and took the corner pretty gingerly, so we were level onto the slip road, but within seconds I might as well have given up. It was like me racing a Ford Escort! He was gone, big time. And we all know that slight sinking feeling in such situations [img]images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

Given that the performance figures for the new S4 are not that much of an improvement on my model, had I been in the new one, I'd have been even more pi**ed off!

I'm no boy racer, honest(!), but we all have a little go now and then, especailly when the other car happens to be one that all the media pitch against the Audi.

So, what to do? New S4, and wait 'til it rains, hope you hook up with someone who's not a lunatic in a rear wheel drive motor and finally show him the way home; or RS4 and put up with the old shape platform; or simply chip my current car and wait for the turbos to blow! Or, get a TDi and ignore everyone! [img]images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

[PhilT]

Hi Pete,

Interesting write up. A few of us know the A404 quite well [img]images/graemlins/033102bigblink_1_prv.gif[/img] . Sounds to me like the M3 may have had a little work done to it (Not a lot, 'cause ya can't in an M3!!), Joshie may be able to elaborate a little here..

simply chip my current car and wait for the turbos to blow!

Indeed. Chip + Blow turbos + Replace with K04s = Sorted [img]images/graemlins/thumbs.gif[/img]

[Joshie]

Hi Pete,

Interesting write up. A few of us know the A404 quite well [img]images/graemlins/033102bigblink_1_prv.gif[/img] . Sounds to me like the M3 may have had a little work done to it (Not a lot, 'cause ya can't in an M3!!), Joshie may be able to elaborate a little here..

Not sure I can except to say that I've had a look at what's out there in the modding department and firstly it costs an absolute fortune to do anything with the M3 and secondly produces very little gain. The engines specific output is 107 BHP per litre which is exceptional for a normally aspirated engine. But I have test driven them and they are FAST. So me the decision to go M3 was based on:
- No real need to tune it (apart from Pagid Yellows which alledgedly cure those brake fade issues)
- Fuel consumption (honest)
- More involving and great fun to drive (the Audi is overly governed and I think the esp cannot be fully disengaged)
- Phenomenal residuals (66% only bettered by the Porsche at 70%)
- Weight S4 1700 kgs; M3 1570 kgs.

Mind you, had the new S4 been designed with a 3.2 turbo with say 400BHP there'd have been no contest.

I agree with many that have said that Audi knew what they had to beat in the M3 but I think they CHOSE not to compete head on. Why? - well perhaps all their consumer research says that the S4 driver is the woolly jumper type who likes to have a sporty car to make up for some other deficiency [img]images/graemlins/roflmao.gif[/img] Who knows and who cares as long as they fetch out an RS4 replacement to blow the competition away - shouldn't be too difficult to beat the CSL - EVO has the new Subaru in front [img]images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] [img]images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img].

simply chip my current car and wait for the turbos to blow!

Indeed. Chip + Blow turbos + Replace with K04s = Sorted [img]images/graemlins/thumbs.gif[/img]
[/quote]

.....and then wait for the KO4's to blow? [img]images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]
er, only joking [img]images/graemlins/033102bigblink_1_prv.gif[/img]

[peterskellen]

Hi Phil

Sounds to me like the M3 may have had a little work done to it

Don't think so mate, and the reason I say this is that my brother's got the 330 Sport, and through the gears, it pretty well matches my S4. He in turn has had a go against his boss's C32 AMG, which almost exactly replicates the performance of the E46 M3 in a straight line, and described exactly the same scenario as mine with the M3, in other words, give up after a couple of seconds! [img]images/graemlins/bigwave.gif[/img]

Joshie, I hear what you're saying about the forthcoming RS4, but I don't want to spend what is bound to be £50k or more. E46 M3s are on sale now in the low £30ks, but I want a 4 wheel drive motor for similar money that hasn't got spoilers the size of Margate coming out the back. For me the S4 is styled perfectly, because I'm one of those drivers who enjoys driving for my own sake, not who is always screaming for attention, which is what anyone in an M3 is going to get (deliberately induced or not). I had an E36 M3 for a couple of years before my S4, and while being great fun to drive, I found the handling too wild, especially after having had four sapphire Cosworths (3 of which were 4 wheel drive) before that. For the sort of high mileage driving that I do, I think the M3 would mean too much constant concentration, particularly in the wet.

I want an understated, reliable, comfortable, safe and practical 4 wheel drive motor with a sub 5 second 0 - 60 time for less than £40k, and before it was released I really thought the new S4 would match my criteria. Maybe Audi have improved the handling, comfort etc on the new model, but why the hell didn't they improve markedly the performance? BMW have! [img]images/graemlins/033102bad_1_prv.gif[/img]

[Riz_RS4]

344bhp isnt too bad thou? its a strong engine and a `s` car.
The M3 and S4 are very different cars really..... the new S4 Cab Vs M3 cab is more like it! If only Audi made a S4 Coupe.

[jeffw]

I had a 'run' the other day with a 'committed' E46 M3 driver and ther wasn't a lot in it..he pulled away slightly once the car in front pulled over (this was on a private dual-carriageway) and I had him back once the turbos where singing. We got upto some very silly speeds and I decided to let him go once we approached twice the legal speed limit...cough. I've also had a run against the previous E36 Evo model and it got creamed.

[Riz_RS4]

M3`s can be very twitchy at speeds above 130mph.... ive had a run in with 3 so far and lets just say they probably didnt except me to keep up so well...... even one pulled over as going around a bend in the motorway he eased back, my turbo was doing its job well and i passed him at 144mph [img]images/graemlins/biggrin3.gif[/img] [img]images/graemlins/bigwave.gif[/img]
M3 needs drivers who are confident in the car and who dont get unsettle too quickly when the car wobbles.... but the Audi`s are rock solid and any basic driver can keep going to the limit. 4WD ahhhhhh ultimate in `real` driving situations.

[Dippy]

Pete,

I don't want to get too heavily involved in an S4 vs M3 debate 'cos I've never driven an M3. Also IMO I'm one of those misguided people who think that Audi are not aiming for exactly the same market at BMW (sure there's an overlap, but I think Audi are trying to mostly sell to a different segment).

However I have driven a 330 sport coupe thingy. IMO the B5 S4 is a better car and stock has a serious performance edge. I'm concerned about your tests with your brother as when my S4 was stock I always outran 330's, even those driven by boy-racers.

Regarding the M3, BMW have clearly produced an exceptional engine (except for those which blew up of course!). It is probably tuned about as far as it can go, however. Whereas Audi have rather conservatively tuned the B6 S4 engine. It appears that with a fairly standard exhaust (i.e. more to come) from Miltek and a chip from AmD, the new S4 can produce over 400 bhp, and a lot more torque than the M3. With it's extra weight, that should make it a true competitor to the M3.

However, as I said, I'm not really going to get into the argument. What I will comment about is that car A vs car B is a rather person thing. You have already pointed out the advantages of 4 wheel drive. If that's what you want then no matter how good the M3 is, it will always be a problem to you with only rear-wheel drive.

The trouble with these car comparisons is that they are always biassed. It's the same with reports like yours about leaving the A404 onto the M4. Such an occasion is only a fraction of your time on the road so you shouldn't focus on it too much.

I briefly read an M3 CSL vs Porche 911 (something) vs Impreza STi import in one of the mags. I was only reading between the lines, but the M3 seemed to come off worst. For the price, the Impreza came off best. But for those who have owned any Impreza will surely agree, there are plenty of reasons to pay all that extra money for fine German engineering compared to the "cheap and cheerful" engineering of the Subaru.

The truth is that cars like the M3 and Impreza are ONLY better than a comparable S4 for the best drivers who can drive them at their limit. However for the average driver, the S4 can be driven safely near its limit, whereas the others cannot. As someone who has crashed an Impreza (yes I'm an average driver) I know what I'm saying.

Anyway, I'll finish by noting that you have a standard S4. I'm sorry but that means that you do not know the full potential of your car. A chip makes a serious difference. A chip and a full exhaust system makes a stonking difference. I've not tested my 0-60 (Joshie knows why), but have no doubt that it would be under 5 seconds.

[Riz_RS4]

Dippy my point exactly.... the 3 M3 drivers i came across obviously didnt know how to drive the M3 to its true potential........ I was well chuffed.... my little S3 is a very powerful little car [img]images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[peterskellen]

Dippy

Thanks for your reply - very interesting.

I'm concerned about your tests with your brother as when my S4 was stock I always outran 330's, even those driven by boy-racers

Yes, coming out of tight corners I left him easy (because of the 4 wheel drive no doubt), but in a straight line, he was right with me. The book through-the-gear times figures for both cars support this (30 - 70 times etc), and top speed is about the same (153-ish).

It appears that with a fairly standard exhaust (i.e. more to come) from Miltek and a chip from AmD, the new S4 can produce over 400 bhp

But for me, doing 40k miles a year, I have to keep an eye on fuel consumption (call me square if you like!). Any idea what difference this would make to the economy? And also any idea on the cost of such a conversion?

You have already pointed out the advantages of 4 wheel drive. If that's what you want then no matter how good the M3 is, it will always be a problem to you with only rear-wheel drive.

Exactly. That's why I so want to love the new S4, but I'm not convinced I will. I've seen other posts on this and other forums complaining of lack of grunt.

Such an occasion is only a fraction of your time on the road so you shouldn't focus on it too much.

But unfortunately, I'd say 80% of my driving is motorway based, which is another reason why the S4 would be the more practical choice. So I'm often going to be in situations where someone's going to want to have a go on long wide open roads. If I'm spending near 40k, I don't want to have to bow down and not rise to the bait each time!

However for the average driver, the S4 can be driven safely near its limit, whereas the others cannot. As someone who has crashed an Impreza (yes I'm an average driver) I know what I'm saying

Too right; probably the main reason why I'm driving an S4 now. I stacked the M3 I had, loosing it round a slightly damp sweeping bend, when the back just completely went without any warning signs through the steering (I'm still convinced to this day I hit an oil patch because I wasn't even taking the bend that fast).

A chip makes a serious difference. A chip and a full exhaust system makes a stonking difference.

Yes I've often wondered about this, but after my dreadful experiences in the Cosworths (slightly different build quality, I know!) going through several engines and turbos, I'm reluctant to alter what has so far been an incredibly reliable engine (110k on the clock and not one major problem). Could you offer any words on the merits of chipping the stock car in terms of it's reliability? Remember I'm doing 40k miles a year!

[Dippy]

But for me, doing 40k miles a year, I have to keep an eye on fuel consumption (call me square if you like!). Any idea what difference this would make to the economy? And also any idea on the cost of such a conversion?

Good point. I think the stock B6 S4 gets around 17 or 18 mgp typically. I imagine that a remap will reduce this. I don't think that AmD have advertised the price yet but typically it would be around £2K for the exhaust and £1K for the chip.

But unfortunately, I'd say 80% of my driving is motorway based, which is another reason why the S4 would be the more practical choice. So I'm often going to be in situations where someone's going to want to have a go on long wide open roads.

What I meant was racing someone down a slip road. In my experience the motorways are so full of traffic, or just people who don't know what "drive on the left" means, that every car becomes the same. However since you have "long wide open roads" I guess that you don't spend much time in the SE of England!

Too right; probably the main reason why I'm driving an S4 now. I stacked the M3 I had, loosing it round a slightly damp sweeping bend, when the back just completely went without any warning signs through the steering (I'm still convinced to this day I hit an oil patch because I wasn't even taking the bend that fast).

Same here - I initially thought that there must have been oil on the road. However I have driven down the same road faster and in wetter conditions in my S4 without a problem. So my conclusion is that the understeer of the Impreza coupled with the 'lift-off-oversteer' I got from being an 'average driver' caused my accident. I still have the same opinion: In good hands the Scooby is a very fast car. In the wrong hands it is lethal.

Yes I've often wondered about this, but after my dreadful experiences in the Cosworths (slightly different build quality, I know!) going through several engines and turbos, I'm reluctant to alter what has so far been an incredibly reliable engine (110k on the clock and not one major problem). Could you offer any words on the merits of chipping the stock car in terms of it's reliability? Remember I'm doing 40k miles a year!

Nope. As I've always stated on these forums, statistically chipping must reduce reliability. However it must be true that your turbos, if the original ones, must be nearing the end of their life. So if you keep your car, a K04 upgrade could be on the cards (but it's not cheap). Joshie should be able to give a first-hand comparison of an M3 vs a K04'd S4.

[Joshie]

M3`s can be very twitchy at speeds above 130mph.... ive had a run in with 3 so far and lets just say they probably didnt except me to keep up so well...... even one pulled over as going around a bend in the motorway he eased back, my turbo was doing its job well and i passed him at 144mph [img]images/graemlins/biggrin3.gif[/img] [img]images/graemlins/bigwave.gif[/img]

I've never driven an M3 at those sorts of speeds (think the salesman thought he could actually slow me down during my test drives by pushing the imaginary brake pedal as we went through the MK roundabouts [img]images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]) - but I have had a run in with two M3's and a GT2 on the continent. I won't go into detail - you can read all about it somewhere on this forum - except to say that the M3's were steady as a rock at speeds far in excess of 130. Let me say that they both hauled ass - I only really left them after their limiters had cut in. I was very very impressed.

I'm sure your S3 is quick mate but it just ain't in the same league as an M3 or the new S4 (which is certainly no slouch) It's good to dream though [img]images/graemlins/033102bigblink_1_prv.gif[/img]

[Riz_RS4]

Did your M3`s have 19" alloys on?

I'm sure your S3 is quick mate but it just ain't in the same league as an M3

i know but i was really expecting a big gap between me and the M3.... but they just couldnt seem to pull any real big gap... they probably just lost their bottle.... but if youve got a M3 and dont have bottle you will get passed!

Dream yes..... until i get a RS car [img]images/graemlins/biggrin3.gif[/img]
Does torque make a difference? will it help a car keep up with the car infront?