Remap

[W8PMC]

I'm not convinced that the risk is very small or small. I personally *think* there is a moderate risk which is considerably lowered if you have an insurance backed warranty on top of the manufacturer's warranty. There are plenty of signs on the internet of people claiming of having no problems with tuned cars nor warranty rejections but there are plenty of posts by people who claim they have. I've been told (hearsay!) by a dealer that he knows of warranty claims being refused by (as it happens) BMW; particularly with their turbo diesels, he said that it was "several."

In the states the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act protects the consumer against a manufacturer voiding warranties if 3rd party products are used unless they can prove that the mod/part caused the fault:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11943

I don't think there is anything quite so specific in the EU but I would imagine the manufacturer wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court if the problem wasn't related to the mod.

This is a link to a company selling tunes and clearly stating what the warranty situation is:

http://www.stage3motorsports.com/Stage- ... ranty.html

The more power you push through the powertrain the more stress you put on the parts and the more chance of failure. The comments that you can service the car elsewhere, refuse software updates etc... makes only a small difference. If a part in your powertrain fails and you want the remedial work done under warranty you run the risk of having your manufacturer's warranty voided in respect to anything (imo) that relates to the modification.

I'm sure their are examples both good & bad, but i'd be confident that only in the most extreme cases would this become an issue so stand by it being a very small risk.

If you have an insurance backed tune then the risk is pretty much non existent, although i guess a tuner could go out of business just as you need to make a claim

Totally agree though that a risk does exist.

As for modified parts, that's a gimme as i'd hope anyone who'd fitted aftermarket brakes or suspension would not be returning to the dealer if a failure occurred with those parts.

Always good a tuning debate. Almost always a yes/no camp & i guess their always will be.

[VARSITY]

I think there are many people here that are taking the 'fifth' on this subject.

There are comments here on the forum from owners who have had problems related to works/tuning and have had the issues repaired and even cars replaced under warranty when they know they shouldn't have.

Do the majority think that they will always win? Yes, of course the do, but watch out as this will change with the new ecu now being used and the fact that Audi and their likes get smarter.

I heard a story the other day where an RS6 owner was due to have the infamous tailpipe replacement, but they plugged it in and bingo TD1 code showed. Guess what, the car was then on the system for no further warranty work to be allowed, including the tailpipe.

Cheers

[Graeme4130]

The more power you push through the powertrain the more stress you put on the parts and the more chance of failure... If a part in your powertrain fails and you want the remedial work done under warranty you...

...would be committing fraud!

If an engine/drivetrain part on a tuned car fails you should fork out to fix it. Simple. That's why it's important to use a good tuner so you don't sacrifice reliability.

Fraud's perhaps a bit strong as that would only have the slightest chance of flying could it be proved the tune 'caused' the failure.

Totally agree if that 'was' the case then you'd be looking at utilising the tuners warranty which is why the better ones have such insurances.

Out if interest, if you made your engine/turbo go pop by adding more boost, would someone like DMS cover the costs of a new engine/turbo ?

[Mcma1]

I have not been near my dealer since i fitted the Akropovic, from reading this, if my car was left in for its first service it would get a TD1 code beside it?? to be honest before i do go in to them I will probably call in quietly in the van and have an honest chat. The Akra is a hardly a straight through thrown together exhaust so hopefully we can work something out...a tune though is a totally different story that will continue to be discussed on here!

[DragonRR]

...would be committing fraud!

If an engine/drivetrain part on a tuned car fails you should fork out to fix it. Simple. That's why it's important to use a good tuner so you don't sacrifice reliability.

Fraud's perhaps a bit strong as that would only have the slightest chance of flying could it be proved the tune 'caused' the failure.

Totally agree if that 'was' the case then you'd be looking at utilising the tuners warranty which is why the better ones have such insurances.

Out if interest, if you made your engine/turbo go pop by adding more boost, would someone like DMS cover the costs of a new engine/turbo ?

Fraud only comes into play if you were to deliberately hide that fact that the car has been tuned in order to get something covered by the warranty which had been directly damaged by the mod.. However all this talk of whether a tune can be detected or not suggests that many people here have this in mind

Being honest, when I considered a tune myself I asked the same questions - can the tune be removed if there is a problem? Is it detectable? But in the end I decided that W8PMC's route was the only correct one - make sure you have the tuner's warranty on top and then you don't need to hide anything.

I've been a potential "victim" of a tune which has coloured my judgement to some degree. We bought a Defender a couple of years back and were told it had a "mild" engine tune. The entire engine had to be replaced less than a year later as well as the clutch. This may have just been a bit of bad luck, perhaps the tune was not at fault at all but that's not my overall impression.

Many years ago I had a well known tuner (of the day) mod a Renault 5 turbo with a wastegate bleed valve. No end of trouble followed and I ended up removing it.

Realistically all tunes rely on the car being over-designed for the job. How over designed the car is must be an educated guess. I cannot imagine tuners purchasing several test cars, running them with different tunes and then using the ones that don't fail as the final retail tune. I would hazard a guess myself that a 10% tune will, in all likelihood, have no significant impact on almost any car's reliability.. but most of us want more than a small 10% tune

@Mcma1. In the states the manufacturer would have to prove that your exhaust or mod had caused a fault on your car. In the eu it isn't quite as clear cut but I very much doubt you would have anything voided on your warranty because you had changed the exhaust. My Porsche dealer told me that they had not experienced any warranty problems where a customer had changed an exhaust .. except that they had refused an extended warranty on a car because the insurance company stipulates the car must be completely unmodded.

[bam_bam]

Fraud only comes into play if you were to deliberately hide that fact that the car has been tuned in order to get something covered by the warranty which had been directly damaged by the mod...

Not really, fraud comes into play when you knowingly take your remapped car in for warranty work. It's a breach of the Ts & Cs in the warranty. Doesn't matter though, ultimately they have right to refuse you on the basis of the remap being present.

[DragonRR]

Fraud only comes into play if you were to deliberately hide that fact that the car has been tuned in order to get something covered by the warranty which had been directly damaged by the mod...

Not really, fraud comes into play when you knowingly take your remapped car in for warranty work. It's a breach of the Ts & Cs in the warranty. Doesn't matter though, ultimately they have right to refuse you on the basis of the remap being present.

No that's not the case. Fraud is a criminal activity, breaching someone's Ts&Cs is not a criminal activity and on top of that a car maker cannot void all of a vehicle's warranty because you have tuned the car. I say cannot ... in the US this is patently true, in the EU there is some case precedent with, of all things, ink jet printer cartridges.

[wildbore]

Inkjet cartridges? Is that where you make them print everything in bold?

[bam_bam]

Fraud only comes into play if you were to deliberately hide that fact that the car has been tuned in order to get something covered by the warranty which had been directly damaged by the mod...

Not really, fraud comes into play when you knowingly take your remapped car in for warranty work. It's a breach of the Ts & Cs in the warranty. Doesn't matter though, ultimately they have right to refuse you on the basis of the remap being present.

No that's not the case. Fraud is a criminal activity, breaching someone's Ts&Cs is not a criminal activity and on top of that a car maker cannot void all of a vehicle's warranty because you have tuned the car. I say cannot ... in the US this is patently true, in the EU there is some case precedent with, of all things, ink jet printer cartridges.

It is, warranty is fraud is warranty fraud, simple. It's an insurance product, same type of fraud mechanism and arguments can be used. Going against a warranty Ts & Cs AND then knowingly attempt to claim on a manufacture's warranty, that is warranty fraud. Currently an automobile is a lot more expensive and complicated than an ink jet cartridge, that said, there are already automotive precedents, ruling that the use of an aftermarket CATback should not give reason to void a manufacture's warranty. As manufacturers were wanting to do.
However, this is editing of software intellectual property we're talking about NOT 3rd party replacement parts, as the ink jet cartridge is. There are actually pretty good laws and definitions in place to protect IP. I've worked on many cases.
Example: jail-break an iPhone and see how much warranty support you receive.

So, altering the code or IP contained within the ECU is somewhat indefensible. It's a bit of a trap that one.

[DragonRR]

Not really, fraud comes into play when you knowingly take your remapped car in for warranty work. It's a breach of the Ts & Cs in the warranty. Doesn't matter though, ultimately they have right to refuse you on the basis of the remap being present.

No that's not the case. Fraud is a criminal activity, breaching someone's Ts&Cs is not a criminal activity and on top of that a car maker cannot void all of a vehicle's warranty because you have tuned the car. I say cannot ... in the US this is patently true, in the EU there is some case precedent with, of all things, ink jet printer cartridges.

It is, warranty is fraud is warranty fraud, simple. It's an insurance product, same type of fraud mechanism and arguments can be used. Going against a warranty Ts & Cs AND then knowingly attempt to claim on a manufacture's warranty, that is warranty fraud. Currently an automobile is a lot more expensive and complicated than an ink jet cartridge, that said, there are already automotive precedents, ruling that the use of an aftermarket CATback should not give reason to void a manufacture's warranty. As manufacturers were wanting to do.
However, this is editing of software intellectual property we're talking about NOT 3rd party replacement parts, as the ink jet cartridge is. There are actually pretty good laws and definitions in place to protect IP. I've worked on many cases.
Example: jail-break an iPhone and see how much warranty support you receive.

So, altering the code or IP contained within the ECU is somewhat indefensible. It's a bit of a trap that one.

It is not fraud to take your car in for warranty work when your car has been tuned, it is not illegal to modify your car's ECU or mechanical systems. It is Fraud were you to hide the fact that the car had been tuned to achieve financial gain in some way... so, for example, you were trying to avoid paying for a blown engine which was caused by the mod. It is also fraud if you don't inform your insurance company that you have modified your car and make a claim under insurance.

You can make modifications to any piece of software, you cannot resell the modified software as your own, the warranty situation is contentious. IP only comes into it if you are infringing copyright.. reselling the modified software... which you aren't. Actually this does bring into question what happens if you are to later sell the car with a modified ECU of course. Technically this may well be copyright infringement because you only have the right to sell the unmodified software.

The iPhone jailbreaking situation is complex and AFAIK there has never been a test case. Apple state in the EU that jailbreaking voids the warranty, they cannot do this in the US due to the Magnuson-Moss act. In the EU we have the argument of interoperability http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IOS_jailbreaking which may or may not hold any real water.

I do agree that in the EU the manufacturer may be legally entitled to void your entire warranty if they detect a modification to the ECU but I have serious doubts they would test that in court.

[RossDagley]

I do agree that in the EU the manufacturer may be legally entitled to void your entire warranty if they detect a modification to the ECU but I have serious doubts they would test that in court.

On a £15,000+ warranty claim for a replacement engine? You go first and let us know yeah?

[DragonRR]

I do agree that in the EU the manufacturer may be legally entitled to void your entire warranty if they detect a modification to the ECU but I have serious doubts they would test that in court.

On a £15,000+ warranty claim for a replacement engine? You go first and let us know yeah?

If you'd read my post you would have realised that I'm not arguing that they wouldn't void the drive train warranty, they probably would. The argument is whether they would void the ENTIRE warranty because they discovered a tune. So your electric window fails, you have a tune - in the USA the warranty cannot be legally voided. In the EU it is questionable.

[RossDagley]

The warranty contract terms are clear.

"Vehicles modified in any way from the manufacturers original specification"

If you take out a warranty policy and agree to these terms, there's nothing to argue "in law" or otherwise. The vehicle is modified, they wont pay.

Spinners on your wheels, or aftermarket tinted windows, or a full blown engine map and turbo swap. They don't HAVE to pay for a single thing, related to the modification or not.

[W8PMC]

I have not been near my dealer since i fitted the Akropovic, from reading this, if my car was left in for its first service it would get a TD1 code beside it?? to be honest before i do go in to them I will probably call in quietly in the van and have an honest chat. The Akra is a hardly a straight through thrown together exhaust so hopefully we can work something out...a tune though is a totally different story that will continue to be discussed on here!

My stand was always if it's a cat back system you really have nothing to worry about, although obviously the dealer wouldn't cover issues relating to the aftermarket exhaust. If a full system then could be sticky & far more so if it includes Downpipes as now the modified parts are physically attached to the engine. I've only gone as far as a cat back system on any car i've modified.

[W8PMC]

[/quote]

Out if interest, if you made your engine/turbo go pop by adding more boost, would someone like DMS cover the costs of a new engine/turbo ?[/quote]

I'd certainly not be stupid enough to claim all tuners would, but those with a comprehensive insurance backed warranty certainly should & i'm 100% confident my tuner of choice would, which is why i allow them to work & develop on my car.