Remap

[RossDagley]

How is this topic still going?

[Graeme4130]

I've just read back and feel I need to enlist the support of a translator

[DragonRR]

Ta & totally understand the explanation around coding differences. That said, what can/can't be seen doesn't tally with what i've been told by both BMW & Audi. Albeit at BMW they are/were Regular Technicians, but at Audi it was a long standing Master Technician.

The master technicians I've come across have been uniformly good. I would be the last person to say that they would provide incorrect information.

[W8PMC]

I had assumed regarding software updates, that detail would be on the car not the dealers puter. Or the dealer would check within the vehicle what version of software the car was running & then apply said update if required. Surely if held at dealer level it would need to be centralised as the car could go into any dealer for an update or for any warranty work.

Perhaps my previous post might have answered this but:

Your ECU is a computer running software which has a version number. The ECU "map" which is really data may also have a version number. The software and data can be "hacked" by a tuner who would leave the version number unchanged.

If you went into a dealer they might check the software and data versions, notice there is an update and install it. This would almost certainly remove any remap you have.

However "version" is not a "checksum/hashcode". A checksum is basically an error check where a person or program can check that not one single piece of code or data has been changed in a system. It is normally used as a back check to make sure nothing has corrupted and just about any properly written piece of software or chunk of data will have a checksum. In it's most basic sense a checksum might simply be the sum of all the data added together (this method wouldn't be used tho because it doesn't cover all bases).

Ta & totally understand the explanation around coding differences. That said, what can/can't be seen doesn't tally with what i've been told by both BMW & Audi. Albeit at BMW they are/were Regular Technicians, but at Audi it was a long standing Master Technician.

Point is i don't doubt any change to the code 'could' with the relevant level of investigation be uncovered, where my either confusion or misinformed knowledge is struggling is that this isn't a simple dealer diagnostic computer check. I accept certain changes such as flash count & obviously software version can be viewed by a dealer, but changes to a few lines of code (using the language that was used with me) can't be & that would require some detective work which would likely mean the ECU being shipped to either the Mfctr of said ECU or perhaps a 3rd party.

So - as soon as a tiny piece of code or data is changed in the ECU the checksum will (unavoidably) change and this would be very, very easy to compare to the checksum held on either the dealer's server or the manufacturer's centralised system where alarm bells may or may not ring that something is wrong.

Oops, schoolboy error when posting with quote. Note to self, keep scrolling

[W8PMC]

How is this topic still going?

It's a car forum, it's what happens

[BFT - John]

To be fair it's a fair topic as some people might 'unknowingly' go in expecting Audi/Porsche/BMW to cover their car based on previous experience when it has been unnoticed/don't care etc. before.

The SWM check retrieves the CVN (checksum verification number) from the serial eeprom of the ecu and automatically sends it to the factory. They get a 'yey' or 'ney' back. That is what the dealer cares about. A 'yey' automatically stamps TD1 onto the car which in turn means the powertrain warranty is void. Which covers engine/gearbox/ecu/brakes/suspension.

They can not see what has been changed only that something has been changed.

Once a remap has been detected it's stamped TD1 for life on the computer system . Reverting back to standard map still shows the write process taking place in the serial eeprom and once TD1 is stamped it's there on the Audi system by VIN.

[W8PMC]

To be fair it's a fair topic as some people might 'unknowingly' go in expecting Audi/Porsche/BMW to cover their car based on previous experience when it has been unnoticed/don't care etc. before.

The SWM check retrieves the CVN (checksum verification number) from the serial eeprom of the ecu and automatically sends it to the factory. They get a 'yey' or 'ney' back. That is what the dealer cares about. A 'yey' automatically stamps TD1 onto the car which in turn means the powertrain warranty is void. Which covers engine/gearbox/ecu/brakes/suspension.

They can not see what has been changed only that something has been changed.

Once a remap has been detected it's stamped TD1 for life on the computer system . Reverting back to standard map still shows the write process taking place in the serial eeprom and once TD1 is stamped it's there on the Audi system by VIN.

Voids the warranty for suspension & brakes, how come? Would have to be a very spurious link for a change in the ECU to cause a mechanical failure of the suspension &/or brakes. ECU is a gimme & certain engine/transmission components i'd expect if challenged to struggle with, but surely a blanket rejection would be easy to fight?

[doodlebug]

Nothing would be easy to fight.....

[Leo-RS]

I think there is quite a bit of assumption and hearsay being quoted in this thread that it can be read as scaremongering rather than factual.

There's no way to tell if your individual dealership when servicing will scan for a checksum comparison and then upload it to Audi's central servers. There's no way to tell what will and what will not be covered under warranty even if it were scanned and come back as TD1, they would be hard pushed to deny warranty on brakes and suspension for example.

You can take your car to an independent specialist for servicing.
You can ask your dealership that no software updates are performed to your car

Then there's 2nd hand cars, what happens if you buy the car and it's already TD1 flagged by its previous owner, is it a case of buyer beware? If you plan on keeping the car for 3yrs then what does a TD1 flag matter anyway? It's very unlikely that a software change alone will cause failure of any hardware on your car. Fair enough if you're strapping big turbos and adding nitrous to the engine but a software remap 99.9% of the time has no detrimental effect on your drivetrain (Not over a typical 30k miles, 3yr ownership period anyway)

[bam_bam]

I think there is quite a bit of assumption and hearsay being quoted in this thread that it can be read as scaremongering rather than factual.

There's no way to tell if your individual dealership when servicing will scan for a checksum comparison and then upload it to Audi's central servers. There's no way to tell what will and what will not be covered under warranty even if it were scanned and come back as TD1, they would be hard pushed to deny warranty on brakes and suspension for example.

You can take your car to an independent specialist for servicing.
You can ask your dealership that no software updates are performed to your car

Then there's 2nd hand cars, what happens if you buy the car and it's already TD1 flagged by its previous owner, is it a case of buyer beware? If you plan on keeping the car for 3yrs then what does a TD1 flag matter anyway? It's very unlikely that a software change alone will cause failure of any hardware on your car. Fair enough if you're strapping big turbos and adding nitrous to the engine but a software remap 99.9% of the time has no detrimental effect on your drivetrain (Not over a typical 30k miles, 3yr ownership period anyway)

hearsay

[W8PMC]

I think there is quite a bit of assumption and hearsay being quoted in this thread that it can be read as scaremongering rather than factual.

There's no way to tell if your individual dealership when servicing will scan for a checksum comparison and then upload it to Audi's central servers. There's no way to tell what will and what will not be covered under warranty even if it were scanned and come back as TD1, they would be hard pushed to deny warranty on brakes and suspension for example.

You can take your car to an independent specialist for servicing.
You can ask your dealership that no software updates are performed to your car

Then there's 2nd hand cars, what happens if you buy the car and it's already TD1 flagged by its previous owner, is it a case of buyer beware? If you plan on keeping the car for 3yrs then what does a TD1 flag matter anyway? It's very unlikely that a software change alone will cause failure of any hardware on your car. Fair enough if you're strapping big turbos and adding nitrous to the engine but a software remap 99.9% of the time has no detrimental effect on your drivetrain (Not over a typical 30k miles, 3yr ownership period anyway)

Totally agree:)

To be honest though, the tuning debate is as old as the hills now. I guess examples exist of customers being turned over who've had their cars tuned (I personally don't know of any) & then the majority have never had any issue, but all down to personal choice & I guess a very small risk does exist.

[DragonRR]

I'm not convinced that the risk is very small or small. I personally *think* there is a moderate risk which is considerably lowered if you have an insurance backed warranty on top of the manufacturer's warranty. There are plenty of signs on the internet of people claiming of having no problems with tuned cars nor warranty rejections but there are plenty of posts by people who claim they have. I've been told (hearsay!) by a dealer that he knows of warranty claims being refused by (as it happens) BMW; particularly with their turbo diesels, he said that it was "several."

In the states the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act protects the consumer against a manufacturer voiding warranties if 3rd party products are used unless they can prove that the mod/part caused the fault:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11943

I don't think there is anything quite so specific in the EU but I would imagine the manufacturer wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court if the problem wasn't related to the mod.

This is a link to a company selling tunes and clearly stating what the warranty situation is:

http://www.stage3motorsports.com/Stage- ... ranty.html

The more power you push through the powertrain the more stress you put on the parts and the more chance of failure. The comments that you can service the car elsewhere, refuse software updates etc... makes only a small difference. If a part in your powertrain fails and you want the remedial work done under warranty you run the risk of having your manufacturer's warranty voided in respect to anything (imo) that relates to the modification.

[SuprSi]

The more power you push through the powertrain the more stress you put on the parts and the more chance of failure... If a part in your powertrain fails and you want the remedial work done under warranty you...

...would be committing fraud!

If an engine/drivetrain part on a tuned car fails you should fork out to fix it. Simple. That's why it's important to use a good tuner so you don't sacrifice reliability.

[Graeme4130]

I think there is quite a bit of assumption and hearsay being quoted in this thread that it can be read as scaremongering rather than factual.

There's no way to tell if your individual dealership when servicing will scan for a checksum comparison and then upload it to Audi's central servers. There's no way to tell what will and what will not be covered under warranty even if it were scanned and come back as TD1, they would be hard pushed to deny warranty on brakes and suspension for example.

You can take your car to an independent specialist for servicing.
You can ask your dealership that no software updates are performed to your car

Then there's 2nd hand cars, what happens if you buy the car and it's already TD1 flagged by its previous owner, is it a case of buyer beware? If you plan on keeping the car for 3yrs then what does a TD1 flag matter anyway? It's very unlikely that a software change alone will cause failure of any hardware on your car. Fair enough if you're strapping big turbos and adding nitrous to the engine but a software remap 99.9% of the time has no detrimental effect on your drivetrain (Not over a typical 30k miles, 3yr ownership period anyway)

Totally agree:)

To be honest though, the tuning debate is as old as the hills now. I guess examples exist of customers being turned over who've had their cars tuned (I personally don't know of any) & then the majority have never had any issue, but all down to personal choice & I guess a very small risk does exist.

You're right
I think that's the only true measure if someone on here's had real experience of cars being turned away having had a code read ?

[W8PMC]

The more power you push through the powertrain the more stress you put on the parts and the more chance of failure... If a part in your powertrain fails and you want the remedial work done under warranty you...

...would be committing fraud!

If an engine/drivetrain part on a tuned car fails you should fork out to fix it. Simple. That's why it's important to use a good tuner so you don't sacrifice reliability.

Fraud's perhaps a bit strong as that would only have the slightest chance of flying could it be proved the tune 'caused' the failure.

Totally agree if that 'was' the case then you'd be looking at utilising the tuners warranty which is why the better ones have such insurances.