Brake Thread - OEM Ceramics vs OEM Steel

[Shinobi675]

To add my two pence having had to remove my front ceramic discs due to delamination - going back to the steels is a eye opener even when only using car on road. My car isn't even mapped and the difference between steels and ceramics is literally night and day. But the cost is a biggie if I can't get mine refurbed - hopefully I can but if I can't - then a new set with the discount I'm able to acquire via a contact is still eye watering.

Ah this is more like it! So what were the differences? I found the steals had too much of an off on feel. Difficult to use them to balance the car. So it was anchors on and all fine, but no delicacy!

the on / off feel is the audi calibration and servo

the modulation available on my F-TYPE R ceramics is night and day vs. the R8 V10 Ceramics (on/off)

Yer I'd always thought it was a master cylinder issue.

A grand for pads. Ouch! Will the car be making its 1 year anniversary?

[rtd]

To add my two pence having had to remove my front ceramic discs due to delamination - going back to the steels is a eye opener even when only using car on road. My car isn't even mapped and the difference between steels and ceramics is literally night and day. But the cost is a biggie if I can't get mine refurbed - hopefully I can but if I can't - then a new set with the discount I'm able to acquire via a contact is still eye watering.

Ah this is more like it! So what were the differences? I found the steals had too much of an off on feel. Difficult to use them to balance the car. So it was anchors on and all fine, but no delicacy!

All I can say with regards to the ceramics is you press brake pedal and the car visibly with no fuss no drama slows down - I liken it to hitting a huge wall of honey does that make sense? I have had one terrifying moment when on motorway some idiot decided to literally pull straight out on me - I was motoring along and when I pressed the brake car just slowed down all composed no pitching forward or snaking nothing.

Steels and I've used them quite vigorously over the last few weeks. Car feels like it is going through a real tortuous experience - I don't have the same confidence as I do with the ceramics. You really do have to push a lot harder and I actually brake earlier. In the ceramics I brake very late.

I think you hit the nail on the head shinobi with ceramics the car feels balanced when braking etc steels very much less so - lots more pitch and nose diving lack of composure also.

[Surrey Sam]

I'm sure that I've said it before in this thread - one of the benefits of Ceramics is that they give you better modulation and feel towards maximum braking.

RTD - nice to see someone like myself who has REAL world experience, of both formats on the SAME chassis offering their thoughts. Also the coding difference is for a decreased time delay between pad wipes when the rain sensor is activated. Real world difference is nothing in the dry but the ceramic brakes maybe a tad sharper in the wet, with the right coding than without.

TomRS - You quote used ceramics starting at £8k? Let’s not get all whimsical about this and try keep it factual. Whilst I don't disagree that ceramics are available in the used market at those sort of prices, the fact is they can be purchased cheaper. For example DK sold his RS4 set for £1.5k and the R8 F&R set he had for £4.5k, I'm sure someone had a C6 RS6 set on here for around £5.5k as well. Plug those figures into your man maths and the comparative difference isn’t so eye watering. Hell...you could go to the extreme that I did, buy a 2nd car with ceramics, swap it all over and sell the donor car on for what you paid. Then the ceramic cost = zero!

Just a thought. Do you think the extra un-sprung mass of the upgraded steel brakes you have, could be attributed to your DRC system failure?

[Shinobi675]

They're both really interesting interesting examples. The ceramics surely can't change the weight transfer when stopping on a motorway? Is there any encoding differences that change the front rear brake bias? More rear brake earlier could bring the car down more. But if that's the case then it would be good to just adjust the steals. I'd assume it would feel smoother due to the lower unsprung mass reducing the ripples into the suspension? But I'm guessing!

The wet weather difference is interesting! I'd have assumed that would make them even more similar feel!

Are the b8 ceramics much cheaper then? I only looked at ceramics for the c6 and they were eye watering! Even the German eBay ones were £5k!

[Surrey Sam]

I wouldn't say I noticed decreased pitch under braking with Ceramics really. However on a car like the RS4's which have Ceramic fronts and Steel rears, the optimum braking temps maybe reached closer together when factoring in the more forward bias of road cars. I could probably explain that in a better way, but it's getting past my bedtime

I've seen B8 RS4 used ceramics from between £3.7-£5k. They're on my shopping list but I think that I'll probably end up doing what I did before and buy a 2nd car to swap over with.

[IanH755]

Just a thought. Do you think the extra un-sprung mass of the upgraded steel brakes you have, could be attributed to your DRC system failure?

At 13.5kg the 410mm AP's are 3kg lighter than OEM 390mm steel so it's less unsprung weight. I know going from the even lighter AP 390mm discs (12kg) to the heavier AP 410mm discs there was a noticeable "weightier" feel to the steering but I honestly couldn't say that I can "feel" any handling difference (better/worse) yet just the extra weight. That might be more noticeable closer to the limit rather than on the road.

Are the b8 ceramics much cheaper then? I only looked at ceramics for the c6 and they were eye watering! Even the German eBay ones were £5k!

All the ones I found were £5k+ for a full set with some being of obvious "questionable" quality but some looking almost new. It's just a shame how rare they are to find.

[HYFR]

. For example DK sold his RS4 set for £1.5k

First set was £3k
Second set £2k

Both times with steel set up included as px ontop of cash.

[Surrey Sam]

Whoops! My bad..again

Still bitter you didn't sell me the 2nd set

[TomRS]

Sam,

No i dont think the extra or in the case of what Ian stated the less weight has contributed to DRC failure, the shocker in question is a rear one anyway so has no bounding on the front brakes, i also like how you assume they would weigh more when in actual fact there is a savings of 3kg per corner.
Agreed my man maths was way off but as pointed out above those sales included a swap for steels so not 100% accurate, C6 ceramics are also a lot harder to find than B8/R8 ceramics.
The 8k was the cost of ramics before i looked into other roads that was a while ago now, it doesnts change the cost of a replacement disc being up to and sometimes more than £1500 when compared to one replacement 410 steel though.
So we can debate this all day long, fact is some folk have a big wad of cash that they have available to buy ceramics, those folk also are more likely to be able to afford to replace those discs if anything ever happened.

Me... i dont have a disposable few thousand, i get paid a good wage but could i justify 3-5k on USED ceramics with no real history.. no i cant, my whole debate isnt about ceramics being any more or less affective than steels, we know ramics are better in prolonged stopping etc.
The clear winner on a complete price front is the AP steels, they are cheap to reaplace as are the pads... even replacement callipers etc are far cheaper than the ramic counterparts.
i would very much like to compare the 410mm steels vs the ceramics.

So if anyone has ramics on a C6 and is willing to do a test, we'll find a oval/runway and do 15x consistant 100-0 tests and compare results, i feel the overall performance of the ramics wont be that greater than the 410's NOTE - i am saying the ramics will perform better but the margin i feel wont be worth the extra cost.

As for intial bite the 410's have a really sharp intial bite and do inspire confidence, modulation vs heat through the pedal is good.

[rtd]

Tom I was speaking to Ian about doing a comparison when I get my discs sorted will be interesting to see the results.

On the face of it based on my own experience and having only had a partial few minutes in Ian's car yesterday due to time constraints and traffic I do feel the ceramics will perform better. But enough of the conjecture no better way than a proper comparison to finally put this to bed one way or another.

[Golfather]

The clear winner...

[IanH755]

Gurj - I just realised that I have different brake lines now (due to the AP calipers) which won't fit your ceramic calipers so it'd be best if we used your car instead for the test if you're still up for it.

[rtd]

No worries Ian, although I'm using the same line for the ceramics as I am the steels

[IanH755]

Yeah the OEM's are designed to be swappable for ease of production. I'm now using a shallower "banjo" connection rather than the OEM direct feed.

[rtd]

Ah ok well we can do with my car same principles and testing procedures for both