Carbon clean? Bang for buck?

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PetrolDave
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Re: Carbon clean? Bang for buck?

Post by PetrolDave » Thu Jul 14, 2016 6:55 pm

jonytek wrote:Well I didn't realise that this was such a hot topic around here. The reason that I was thinkimg about the clean first was for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it wouldn't have any impact on my insurance and secondly from what I've seen it can be a huge performance gain. Although with this gain only being short lived it does seem to be a bit of a waste of money. I don't really want to have to be doing this each year.

I think the first stop for me is going to be a run on the dyno for a full health check up and a good chat with the guys at MRC, from there I can look another option such as the remap, maybe an exhaust.

Out of interest what sort of prices are uk insurance companies charging for the stage 2?
Doug at MRC told me when I had a Stage 2 remap done that when they did the health check prior to the Stage 2 remap they typically found that problems with the vacuum system would cause a power loss of around 60bhp but a carbon clean would typically only cause a loss of around 30bhp - which rather discredits the line that a carbon clean is a "huge performance gain" and that vacuum system problems should be the first thing investigated (and corrected if necessary). That's NOT my opinion but what Doug at MRC said to me... and he's seen more RS4s than most people.

Stage 2 made no difference at all to my insurance premium, neither did having a Milltek exhaust fitted - yes I did tell my insurance company as failure to inform them of any "performance related" modifications will give them a reason to invalidate any future claim, so not a risk worth taking IMHO.

IMHO a Stage 2 remap makes the RS4 perform like it should have done in the first place, it comes alive and increases the Cheshire Cat factor massively.
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Re: Carbon clean? Bang for buck?

Post by Harris. » Thu Jul 14, 2016 8:39 pm

Maybe take it to MRC and speak to them about the clean . Pro's and con's etc after all they see them day in day out .

To me the engine is the heart of the car and keeping it clean and maintained is a must .

In what way does the stage 2 change the car ? I see people say it makes it come alive but how .

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Re: Carbon clean? Bang for buck?

Post by Covkiller » Thu Jul 14, 2016 9:27 pm

Who's proved that 5k is the limit of carbon build up. Complete rubbish. I had an MRC full clean as soon as I got my car 4 year ago and I've had my inlet manifold off 3 times in 4 years and the build up was not bad at all. Here's over 20K post clean.
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Re: Carbon clean? Bang for buck?

Post by irn_bru_ce » Thu Jul 14, 2016 11:11 pm

PetrolDave wrote: IMHO a Stage 2 remap makes the RS4 perform like it should have done in the first place, it comes alive and increases the Cheshire Cat factor massively.
Classic quote there, I'm pretty sure when it left the factory it wasn't intended to be choked with carbon at any time during its life
PetrolDave wrote:
TobyRS4 wrote:2. Doing 2-3k per year or low miles the build up will be slow, if you have every intention of continuing with carbon cleaning then why not if the cost isnt an object as this is the way the engine will more often be?
Doing that sort of low mileage usually implies more low rpm running and less "Italian tuning" (unless you use lots of rpm before the engine is fully warm, which is a seriously bad idea), so carbon buildup will be at the highest rate in this scenario.
I only do about 4k per year, but it's certainly not driven at low RPM with less "italian tuning". On average I use the car about twice a week, avoiding rush hours and with as little traffic as possible, always sticking to 3k rpm till the oil hits 90°, so it gets plenty of proper open back road driving. I use my bicycle for any journey less than 10 miles.

I think if you own a B7 RS4 and drive it in such a manner that causes coking up after 5k miles, and then can't afford to maintain clean it every so often, there is probably a different car out there that would better suit your needs
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Re: Carbon clean? Bang for buck?

Post by PetrolDave » Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:23 am

Covkiller wrote:Who's proved that 5k is the limit of carbon build up.
That's the average result of the majority of owners data over the last 10 years - if you look back 5+ years you'll see several threads where owners have taken their RS4s back for carbon clean after around 5k miles only to see exactly the same level of carbon buildup they originally had.

Carbon buildup is fastest when doing lots of low rev driving, and slowest when driven enthusiastically - plus "Italian tuning" is always helpful.

It looks like you're an enthusiastic driver so your carbon buildup will be the slowest, so 20k miles doesn't surprise but you're at the far end of the "normal" range for rate of buildup.

The data is in this forum...
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Re: Carbon clean? Bang for buck?

Post by PetrolDave » Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:31 am

Harris. wrote:In what way does the stage 2 change the car ? I see people say it makes it come alive but how .
The major factor is that MRC remove the 50% throttle limit in the lower 3 gears that Audi put in the drive by wire firmware, so you actually get to use WOT in all gears.

Combine that with removing the non-linear mapping of throttle pedal to throttle body and you get much sharper reactions between your right foot and the engine.

When I had the Stage 2 remap my first thought was "why didn't Audi map it this way?" as it heightens the difference between the "boulevard cruiser" B6/B7 S4 (I've had 2 of them and got bored after 18 months) and the performance orientated RS4 (which still makes me smile after nearly 10 years).
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Re: Carbon clean? Bang for buck?

Post by Harris. » Fri Jul 15, 2016 7:16 pm

PetrolDave wrote:
Harris. wrote:In what way does the stage 2 change the car ? I see people say it makes it come alive but how .
The major factor is that MRC remove the 50% throttle limit in the lower 3 gears that Audi put in the drive by wire firmware, so you actually get to use WOT in all gears.

Combine that with removing the non-linear mapping of throttle pedal to throttle body and you get much sharper reactions between your right foot and the engine.

When I had the Stage 2 remap my first thought was "why didn't Audi map it this way?" as it heightens the difference between the "boulevard cruiser" B6/B7 S4 (I've had 2 of them and got bored after 18 months) and the performance orientated RS4 (which still makes me smile after nearly 10 years).
Thanks Dave for the information :thumbs:

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Re: Carbon clean? Bang for buck?

Post by rs user » Fri Jul 15, 2016 8:06 pm

PetrolDave wrote:
Harris. wrote:In what way does the stage 2 change the car ? I see people say it makes it come alive but how .
The major factor is that MRC remove the 50% throttle limit in the lower 3 gears that Audi put in the drive by wire firmware, so you actually get to use WOT in all gears.

so does that mean effectively a standard car only has 200 or so bhp in the first 3 gears...? or have i got that bit wrong...?

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Re: Carbon clean? Bang for buck?

Post by PetrolDave » Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:37 am

arthur.d wrote:
PetrolDave wrote:
Harris. wrote:In what way does the stage 2 change the car ? I see people say it makes it come alive but how .
The major factor is that MRC remove the 50% throttle limit in the lower 3 gears that Audi put in the drive by wire firmware, so you actually get to use WOT in all gears.

so does that mean effectively a standard car only has 200 or so bhp in the first 3 gears...? or have i got that bit wrong...?
Throttle body opening doesn't relate linearly to available bhp, it's done for the torque limiting effect - which is why you notice the effect even at low-ish rpm.
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Re: Carbon clean? Bang for buck?

Post by Shinobi675 » Sat Jul 16, 2016 6:03 pm

Can't the inlets be coated with something that won't allow the carbon to build up? There must be something if they can stop my sausages sticking to the pan!
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Re: Carbon clean? Bang for buck?

Post by harrier » Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:09 pm

From reading all the above posts on this forum it certainly seems there is a diversity of opinion, which in my view suggests no two cars are quite the same and quite a degree of unpredictability exists. Personally I found a carbon clean and a stage 2 remap made a huge difference to the car's performance on the dyno and real world driving. A good idea of the state of the carbon build can be obtained with a small flexible endoscope without too much effort, can it not? That combined with a dyno run could be expected to show just how much improvement one could hope to achieve, with a target of 420-420 BHP or more, and just how strangled the engine currently is or isn't. Then that would be the time for a discussion with MRC on the costs of cleaning or remapping or both and the likely gains of each, as I am sure, as stated above, that they probably know more than anyone about these issues and will give you an honest opinion.

As for reducing carbon build up, a regular Terraclean might be one way (it certainly can vastly improve emission results). Alternatively, having the engine blown would seem to be one of the few ways. Supercharging certainly seems to have worked for my RS4, but then you would need a Stage 3 remap!
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Carbon clean? Bang for buck?

Post by FaisalJ » Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:15 pm

harrier wrote:
As for reducing carbon build up, a regular Terraclean might be one way (it certainly can vastly improve emission results).
I wouldn't expect much out of a terraclean....

viewtopic.php?t=117463

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Re: Carbon clean? Bang for buck?

Post by PetrolDave » Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:21 am

FaisalJ wrote:
harrier wrote:
As for reducing carbon build up, a regular Terraclean might be one way (it certainly can vastly improve emission results).
I wouldn't expect much out of a terraclean....

viewtopic.php?t=117463
+1

As the thread Faisal linked to shows Terraclean has far more marketing hype than actual results :ban:
Last edited by PetrolDave on Sun Jul 17, 2016 12:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Carbon clean? Bang for buck?

Post by Covkiller » Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:45 am

Terraclean works on outlet only where the carbon build up is minimal. But they are bringing to this country an inlet cleaning process. I will be very interested to see how it can clear away an aerosol cap full of sludge on an previously un-cleaned 75k+ RS4.

http://www.terraclean.net/product.php?id=2

But let's be clear all cars bar none have a certain amount of carbon build up.
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Re: Carbon clean? Bang for buck?

Post by rs user » Sun Jul 17, 2016 12:44 pm

i can see the court papers now if they can find an easy way to dislodge the carbon with a terriclean method-scored bores,damaged valves etc :bash: ... 2nd best way to deal with it is a methodical inlet off clean,best would be a head off strip and rebuild but this isnt viable in the real world... :bigwave:

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