My Water Meth Installation thread

[sync24]

I've been keeping an eye on this one Tony - fair play for trying something different and the install looks quality - well done mate - keep up the posts!

[TonyHayers]

tony are you doing the 3-8k test right?.
foot to the floor at 2000rpm in 3rd then start the timer when the needle hits 3000rpm, not start accelerating and starting the timer at 3000rpm.

Yeah, the first one. It's a bit weird because it *feels* like it's pulling much stronger in the higher rev range and the 5500rpm kick is pretty strong with water meth turned on. So purely on feeling, I'd say I'm slow 3000 to 5500 rpm.

[Stoffle32]

the numbers look good on the doc, though...

[P_G]

Good stuff, I do miss my GruppeM

Me too!

[MortenJuul]

What lamda values are getting?? - you need to run leaner with the meth on - mine tends to be too rich with the wmi on

Your nozzle size and placement??

I run revo - the leanest fuel (9) and timing (5) - Never see any retad ón knock - typically read 15c lower Oil temps ón trackdays with wmi ón

[TonyHayers]

the numbers look good on the doc, though...

Could you elaborate? I'm struggling to make sense of the timing data - seems a bit all over the place to me. cheers.

[TonyHayers]

What lamda values are getting?? - you need to run leaner with the meth on - mine tends to be too rich with the wmi on

Your nozzle size and placement??

I run revo - the leanest fuel (9) and timing (5) - Never see any retad ón knock - typically read 15c lower Oil temps ón trackdays with wmi ón

Haven't logged lambda yet - will do next time. I posted my data from several 3 to 8k rpm runs earlier. The nozzle is max 480cc/min and is injected into intake pipe before throttle body (see pics etc earlier in thread).

With the Revo map, can you adjust those figures yourself or do you have the fuel and timing settings permanently? I don't really want to run a permanent map as I don't have the wmi turned on all the time.

[MortenJuul]

you can adjust all of these from 0 -9 (timing, fuel and throttle respone) with the SPS box - you have 2 ECU's and have to set them twice

The safest settings would be Timing 0 and Fuel 0 as this will request the least amount of
timing advance and the richest lambda-air/fuel ratio. These settings will mean minimal
power gains over stock, but the vehicle will still 'feel' better due to the improved
response.

For Race fuel of better than 100RON (110RON recommended) Fuel should be set to
between 7 and 9 with Timing set according to knock values.

Knock values for the 4.2FSI RS4 engine should be between 4 to 7 although less is fine. If
sustained knock values under load are over 9 then the timing should be turned down.

I will do a pull or 2 with the VBOX

BTW - anyone knows the tiresize for the car with the 7 sec 3k > 8k? - Might be really small tires :p

[MortenJuul]

I did a couple of pulls on the way home

99RON with WMI 15% aprox (375ml 300 PSI methanol) - fuel 9 / timing 5 (438 PS on the dyno)

3.000 RPM - 14:27:18.32 (UTC time)

GPS speed (20hz) - 55.66 Kph
Wheel speed 63.429 kph

8.000 RPM - 14:27:27.18 (UTC time)

GPS speed (20hz) - 150.80
Wheel speed 169.323

Time - 8.86 Sec 3k > 8k

GPS speed increase - 95,14
Wheel Speed increase - 105,894

7.x CANNOT be done (not even downhill in -20C )

[MortenJuul]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhHWssah ... e=youtu.be[/youtube]

2 pulls - 8.86 first pull / 8.95 sec second pull

[MortenJuul]

Hi Tony

Would you be able to do some pulls where you measure the Timing Retardation on all 4 cylinders ECU1?

If you create a VCDS adv. Measure (remember the turbo button for logging) with the following 12 measure blocks

Bank Number Value Sensor Comment
1 1 Engine Speed (G28)
2 2 Engine Load
2 4 Mass Air Flow (G70) Specification (Idle): 1.5...3.5 g/s
3 3 Throttle Valve Angle
3 4 Ignition Timing Angle Specification (Idle): 0.0...25 °CF
4 4 Intake Air Temperature (G42) Range: -40.5...+135.0 °C\nSpecification (Warm): < +80.0 °C (max. +115.0 °C)
20 1 Timing Retardation Cylinder 1
20 2 Timing Retardation Cylinder 2
20 3 Timing Retardation Cylinder 3
20 4 Timing Retardation Cylinder 4
31 1 Lambda Control Bank 1 (actual)
106 1 Fuel Rail Pressure

I have compared our data (but still need to see timing <beep> on yours)

I is obvious that your WMI nozzle is pre MAF / TB since you get much lower intake values when the WMI I running – The good part is the denser air, hence more air (you flow 172g at 8040 RPM – 6C temps – I flow 153g at 8080RPM but 28C intake temp – So due to the lower temps and denser air, you actually flow 11% more air than me (not looking at ambient temps)

The downside is that the methanol evaporates when cooling the air, and does not offer direct “cleaning” of octane boost, as when the nozzle is closer to the intake valves (mine is after the TB directly in the intake manifold)

Your timing is very conservative – you have a max timing angle of 30.8, and run an avg. timing of 28.25 from 3600 > 8040 RPM under 100% load – I run 33.98 degrees avg om the same pull, with higher intake temps - = 5,73 degres more timing on mine (avg)

I cannot see your knock / <beep> – I see around -2.3, so could actually run more timing

Remember I am running 99RON (DK Vpower + 15% Water / meth) = around 103 oct RON with the 117 oct meth

Knock values for the 4.2FSI RS4 engine should be between 4 to 7 although less is fine. If sustained knock values under load are over 9 then the timing should be turned down.
But looking at timing advance, I would sustain 20.28 % power on the timing (your avg 28.5 / 5.73 = 20.28%)

I am running timing 5 with the Revo – Could advance to 7 with the meth – but better safe than sorry 

My lamda is typically 0.85 under full load - so nice and rich to cool the engine (with the meth also)

It would be great to see these values from your install – also an interesting idea to add 2 nozzles – 1 to cool the intake an tell the ECU / MAF of the cooler intake air, and 1 after the TB to boost the octane / clean the valves and run more timing 

Mine

Yours

[MortenJuul]

See what the 22C cooler air would do

6C = 1.258 kg M3

28C = 1.160 kg M3

7,81% more air in 1 m3 at 22C difference on intake air temps!

- But power is not everything - Control is more - right???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnRTvapHxQs

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnRTvapHxQs[/youtube]

[TonyHayers]

Morten - thanks for this, really useful to compare both of our data. It certainly seems that I'm not going to get much timing boost from cool intake air alone.

I'll do some more logging tonight. I've not been using turbo, which I should have been. Is the knock measurement the correction factor or raw voltage from sensors?

Re cleaning valves, the info from the aquamist engineer was that - generally speaking - the meth was for cooling air and the water was for extra power (due to expansion of water turning from vapour to gas in combustion chamber) and "steam cleaning", but it sounds like you see the meth as mainly the cleaning/power component - have I understood you right?

[MortenJuul]

Well - i kinda agree - The water evoporates at 100C and the methanol at 64.7C - This will cool you intake air, but not keep as much WM in the air for cleaning

The "problem" is that you need to advance timing to get effect from the water expansion - Sure - water is very powerfull an creates a lot of NM when expanding in the chamer - but the combustion is slowver, so you need to ignite earlier, to have maximum explosion at the right time (since it slows the combustion, but creates more power)

This is why i run the REVO map - with the SPS box, I can mod the fuel and timing my self (within safe thresholds)

I will also do some more pulls with these 12 log values - I think we need Timing, <beep> and lamda (load and throttle also) to be able to compare

[TonyHayers]

Ah, just a note re density etc - I'm injecting *after* MAF but *before* IAT as I relocated the IAT to right before TB so MAF is reporting "normal" mass at ambient temp.

I do have a CAF though feeding into Revolution intake.