Valves- carboning up

[MB2]

Ignoring the war(s) for a while - I can see both sides of this arguement. However just because something has been designed by clever people who tried to prevent things going wrong does not mean the design is perfect. Sticking to VW/Audi we have petrol tanks that caught fire which I believe brought the US strong consumer laws, & then several other necessary revisions & running fixes VAG coilpacks now on about their 15th PN is a good example or staying with the RS4 the DRC has certainly proved despite patents & a Mk I version in the RS6 to be less than 100% reliable, as too has the ECU software needing 2 revisions, or the brake pads with pins that eat the discs, the clutch pipe that changed diameter, the boot that needed mastic applying to stop it cracking or the relay that lights the brake check light in cold weather...

Every car has its "weaknesses" that are a "common problem" and it is man pushing the limits of design for progress - just because man designed it trying really hard & got some patents in the process does not make something perfect infact it is more likely to fail prematurely IMHO than a "tried & tested" design that has been through several revisons.

[ArthurPE]

No anti american rhetoric at all. It’s history. Go look it up.

Yes Blair was down a garden path. The only saving grace is that the public did not buy any of his lies. Where as your fellow gullable obese yanks were totally won over by Fox news and dubya. I am surprised that your dimwit nation did not vote in John McCain and his Barbie doll vice president. What a joke. I always remember her stating she had the credentials to deal with Russia because she sees it every morning when she gets up. Way to go….Mind you there is 2012? Lord help us.

Please bear in mind that the war was not won irrespective of what your southern hill billy, draft dodging leader proclaimed on some aircraft carrier. Oh on the subject of wars at least we can say we have a fair few in our long history. Also that we are not afraid to take on similar sized nations. You guys pick wars which you think you can win. How did it go in indo China? Sent packing with your tails between your legs by a rag tag army.

You think that the UK has issues? Well at least I can get medical health care without worrying about a bill or whether an operation will be sanctioned by some accountant, 6 weeks full paid holiday every year, full sick pay for up to 6 months, a rich heritage, paid paternity pay. Know that my Wife can have 1 yr maternity, 3 months fully paid the remainder at a reduced rate. Also full knowledge that her job will be there at the end. I will take my countries issues over yours any day.

Your broke over weight dump has had its time, move aside. You are currently China’s gimps so go begging asking them to add value to your third world currency..

Defend your hell hole all you like. You cannot polish a turd.

much angst and anger...
Methinks He Doth Protest Too Loudly

well Blair may have not paid for his lies, but your troops did, many died for this folly...but then again, I'm sure you don't care about that...

can you get mental health care? seek it
as far as birth benefits: please reconsider procreation, you will weaken your society...

the worlds economy is dependent on the US's, for better or worse...

I work 30 hours/week and made 300k, I have 6 weeks off and come and go as I please, my wife works only because she chooses to, not has to...I get healthcare immediately, without waiting, and have no issues what so ever with the quality of life...it sounds like you are trying to convince yourself that you have it better than us...good luck with that one

look at your average income as a ratio of the RS4 price and get back to me...if there is an economy more screwed up than ours, it's yours

[aidanjaye]

Mmmm, wouldn't bring up the death toll really, its not the forum for that sort of thing. Its meant to be about RS4s - come on, its Christmas.

[FIRKINSMIRKIN]

forget the cleaning of the valves! I'm gunna invest in some nuclear warheads! lol

seriously... my car is booked in for the valves cleaned on the 4th jan, i'll get some shot's and let you know how i get on.

[scaghead]

is it just me or does this bling blinger mosh keep slating different forum members.. bling are you noticing a performance issue with yours, have you done any timed runs etc..

[aidanjaye]

is it just me or does this bling blinger mosh keep slating different forum members.. bling are you noticing a performance issue with yours, have you done any timed runs etc..

Well scaghead - maybe your views on blingading are true.
Had a read of his previous posts and not even sure if its an S4 or and rs4 he has. (I've had both buy the way before he moans). Maybe its just his manner, He does seem a tad abrupt with his replies but then Arthur is doing his best to wind him up.............

Anyway, I'm Sure they'll keep it up, the last rant (although I must admit, I did read it all) lasted for 10 pages at the last count - this is only just beginning at 7 pages.

[ArthurPE]

I'm done and I apologize for my bashing and tone: I respect the UK and its people...I was born in the US, served the US and am proud of the US...
I did not, nor do I agree with the war in Iraq, nuff said...

back on topic: a summary from my other post, and a test anyone can do using the OBC, 3-8k 3rd gear, ~36 to 96 mi/hr
I did 4 runs:
32F, high humidity, 1/4 tank fuel, driver only, timed with OBC, 3000-8000 rpm (36 to 96 mph, actual)
8.0 level ground
8.0 level ground
8.4 up grade
8.7 up grade, steeper
avg <8.3
avg level 8 flat

Magazine tests 0-100 using all gears (95 time - 35 time):
C&D ~10.1 - 2.1 ~ 8 sec
AM & S ~10.5 - 2.3 ~ 8.2
R & T (997 comparo) ~9.8 - 1.8 ~ 8 sec
R&T (they make it easy, they have a graph) (M3 comparo) ~10.1 - 2 ~ 8.1

test average ~ 8 sec...
bear in mind that the mag tests were all flying runs, with momentum, using ALL gears to redline...
my runs were from rolling from 2500 timed from 3000 to 8000 using ONLY 3rd gear...

I would be very interested in seeing numbers from others....
I will do some runs rolling in 2nd from 30 to 90, and compare: mags averaged ~7.35 sec

[2manytoys]

Guys, my manifold come off again today. Audi said they cleaned it, and yes the car did feel better.

Here are some pictures


Close up with Snapon Camera


Yuck


Dirty then Clean!


I'm having them cleaned properly this time, and will let everyone know what the car feels like later (may be tomorrow though). Oh, forgot to say; the carbon is so bad the valves didn't seat.

PS: Please Arthur, don't respond saying it's fine, just move on... pleeeeese. The thread is becoming a mess (I'm not just talking about your posts either, I'm just saying you are very talented at getting people to bite back)

[ArthurPE]

are you saying this is a short time after they were cleaned?
or this is the first cleaning?

in the picture labled 'yuck', the valve on the right does not look bad...
neither does the first pic...nor the last, the one in the 'yuck' pic looks bad, looks like oil was drained on it from the manifold, it's wet

as made obvious by the performance of my car w/25k miles (and others with even more miles), not all cars are affected...
something else failed in yours to cause the build up to continue unabated...

I try to keep the discussion technical, if others choose to make it personal that is on them, not me...
second, not your thread or forum, I can post as I please...as may you

[MarkD]

2manytoys,

Did you get to take these pictures yourself, or were they provided to you by the Audi Tech?

I'm curious to know if these valve seat "wipers" actually exist.

The way I read the patent document linked above is that a wiping mechanism could be installed to ensure the valve seats properly. Not that a mechanism actually exists around the valves.

Do you have knowledge either way?

I'll guess what your answer is if your valves weren't seating correctly.

[ArthurPE]

2manytoys,

Did you get to take these pictures yourself, or were they provided to you by the Audi Tech?

I'm curious to know if these valve seat "wipers" actually exist.

The way I read the patent document linked above is that a wiping mechanism could be installed to ensure the valve seats properly. Not that a mechanism actually exists around the valves.

Do you have knowledge either way?

I'll guess what your answer is if your valves weren't seating correctly.

there is no 'valve wiping mechanism' per se...
the valves (all valves) are not constrained in the radial direction, so when actuated by the cam/rollers/tappets they are free to 'spin', and will autorotate as a natural consequence of the mechanical reaction...so they will 'wipe' the seat and lip as they do so...

VW/Audi
did several things to manage deposits:
temperature control of the valve
surface finish of the valve, less adhesion
shape
recircing gas and using the flap to scour them

I know no one want to hear this...but, his car made 195 HP, most make 330 rw HP, he is down 40% on HP, deposits alone can't do this...period
something else failed, the flaps, fuel delivery, something, to allow the deposits to get this severe

it appears they did something to his car, he got it back, and said it felt great...they 'fixed' it, then HE said HE would remove the manifold....I'm assuming he removed the manifold and took the pics, after Audi supposedly 'cleaned' the valves...I'm assuming Audi fixed something else, it 'fixed' the car, did not clean the valves, and 2manytoys just opened up the manifold...if you rad his posts they were cleaned on the 20th (he said he got the car back) and today?

how did they clean the valves?

btw: Audi called me today regarding my email, very interesting conversation...I was very surprised

[ArthurPE]

posted Dec 21

Guys, I just got the car back from Audi. I can confirm it was carbon build up. A VERY bad case of it too. What a disaster.

Arthur is 100% right with his acceleration test. I'd say if you use second gear (so you're going a little slower on a public road) you should feel significantly better acceleration above 6000 rpm. If you don't have a noticable kick, and the revs don't increase quicker, you have a problem. It's as simple as that.

This is going to be a real pain, and something that is probably needed every 6-9 months. At least I now know what the problem was.
Thanks for everyone's help.

Mal.

he performed the accel test and all is fine after they purportedly cleaned the valves...

posted Dec 21

They said that it's poor fuel. When I said I've owned it since Jan and only ever used V-Power they said it was the previous owner. I'm not sure I agree with this.

Anyway, I said I'll remove the manifold in 6 months and check again. I'll actually remove it in a few days to check their work and take some more pictures.
Audi Australia also said it's the first in Australia to suffer from this and are sending the pictures etc off to Audi Germany. I'm sure if Germany know how to read stuff on the internet they'll know all about this problem.

I really hope Germany come out with a fix, as pulling the manifold off every 6-9 months is going to be a pain.

Dec 21

Yep, Arthur, we tried everything else before they removed the intake (coils, plugs, software, flaps, octane booster, knock sensor, MAF and probably more that I didn't hear about). This had to be approved by Germany too. They sent numerous log files and test to Germany. This was over a week. Germany finally said remove the manifold. What they found was a large amount of carbon (I'll have pictures of mine soon). They are being put into an Engineering Report as we speak and being sent to Germany.

Audi spend yesterday cleaning the carbon off, and putting it back together. I got a call after the test run and they said it's fixed. They also had to replace some kind of fuel pump sensor as it had carbon all over it too.

SilverRS4 is right, it's the timing that pulls the engine back. Once the carbon is removed I suspect the timing will be back (I'll check that today and let everyone know).

Ignorance is bliss. It's carbon - end of story

again, they cleaned the vlaves the day before...and it's fixed

today:

Guys, my manifold come off again today. Audi said they cleaned it, and yes the car did feel better.

Here are some pictures
Close up with Snapon Camera
Yuck
Dirty then Clean!

I'm having them cleaned properly this time, and will let everyone know what the car feels like later (may be tomorrow though). Oh, forgot to say; the carbon is so bad the valves didn't seat.

PS: Please Arthur, don't respond saying it's fine, just move on... pleeeeese. The thread is becoming a mess (I'm not just talking about your posts either, I'm just saying you are very talented at getting people to bite back)

and we see this from today...

so Audi 'cleaned' them a few days ago (but not really) plus replaced a bunch of parts and it 'fixed' the issue, then he opens them up today and they look like this?

considering the controversy, and the supposed facts that Audi is aware of this issue and is denying it do you think they would allow their dealers to give 'evidence' to people to post on the internet? I don't

[2manytoys]

Ok, let me try to explain more. I obviously called Audi after I found that it wasn't cleaned.

The Workshop Forman said he saw the deposits before anything was done and it was VERY bad. One of the guys then cleaned the valves. The Workshop Forman then looked after three were cleaned (not cleaned like the one in the picture, but yes, good enough). The interesting thing is, about 3 were actually ok, the rest were bad (like the one in yuck).

If carbon is a result of something else, that "something else" is bad fuel according to Audi. It can't be, I use V-Power all the time, and this has happened in the last 10 months.

I'll report back on the difference once I get it back, hopefully tomorrow.

Mal.

[ArthurPE]

cheer up, it's Christmas...don't dread
if this doesn't make you wanna dance, well....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgUs7yWnDJ8

Some people like to go out dancin'.
Now other people they go to work.
There's even some evil mothers, they'll tell you life's just made out of dirt.
That women, they never really faint, and villains always blink their eyes.
That childeren are the only ones who blush, and life is just to die.
That every one who ever had a heart...
that wouldn't turn round and break it, anyone that played a part, whooa, and wouldn't turn round and hate it.
Sweet Jane, Sweet Jane, Sweet Jane.

oh my, my, sweet Jane

[MarkD]

2manytoys;

Does your car see extended operation at 3000rpm or above?
By extended, I'm referring to the 20min that is referenced in the patent document.

Arthur,
As I mentioned, I didn't expect there to be an object in place to wipe the valves as they rotate.

With respect to the wiping of the valve seat as a natural consequence of the valve's rotation, the effects of the rotational wiping are minimal.