Valves- carboning up

4.2 V8 32v Naturally Aspirated - 414 bhp
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silverRS4
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Post by silverRS4 » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:40 pm

Image
The picture is painted, fellas. First of all, the power loss is due primarily to retarded timing caused by carbon chunks all over everything from the manifold flaps to the valve seats. This has been documented in NA. RS4 with 23k miles, no CEL (MIL), no other signs of a problem EXCEPT the timing was around 20 degrees under load (rather than the normal 30 degrees or so with 92 US octane). Owner thought car was fine, but had noted lower top speeds on the straights during track days. Mustang dyno confirmed with 273 WHP and flat curve from 6-8k. Manifold removed to reveal the CB shown above (I presume OP's valves look similar). Valves cleaned, put back on dyno with the same fuel in the tank and intake air temp within 3C of original run. Power went up to 315 WHP and timing was back to normal, with much less retardation. Interestingly enough, this RS4 had used RLI oil from very early on. Its not oil, its not how you drive it, its not the venturi separator and its certainly not coil packs - its simply a by-product of direct injection which is exaggerated on the RS4 by a rather long period of passive overlap.

There were 2 other cases on the same dyno with RS4 owners REGAINING 30WHP+ simply by cleaning the valves. One of those owners was also sure there was no CB on his engine. To my knowledge, the number of RS4's to display CB with their manifolds removed is still 100%. Its not a pretty picture.
Last edited by silverRS4 on Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SR71
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Post by SR71 » Mon Dec 21, 2009 7:53 pm

We saw the same timing differential on mine and Rob's car prior to his mods.

His car was running 10 degrees less timing than mine.

We never compared the <beep>.

Can't wait to get my valves cleaned!
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sonny
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Post by sonny » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:30 pm

Good post.
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BlingBling
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Post by BlingBling » Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:43 pm

ArthurPE wrote:to the OP, try this:

this is NOT deposits,..
Erm I think it is.

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ArthurPE
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Post by ArthurPE » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:05 pm

BlingBling wrote:
ArthurPE wrote:to the OP, try this:

this is NOT deposits,..
Erm I think it is.
evryone is entitled to an opinion...even you ;)

there is no way deposits cause 60+ HP loss
NO way...period, end of story

there is NO way the type of oil (as long as approved) will affect the deposits...

there are cars out there with 45k miles that run better than factory (or any test) times
1/4 mile <13 sec and >112+ trap (4000+ lbs), avants to boot, that never had their intake cleaned...that is not a 300 HP car...

folks are free to believe what they like
but I see no 'doom & gloom', the sky is falling scenario...

so, if you choose to fret, fret away :D
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe...Albert Einstein

karl
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Post by karl » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:34 pm

Arthur - have you taken the inlet manifold off your car yet? Seeing is believing. Deposits were causing the valves on mine not to seat properly; you cant tell me that wasnt affecting performance.

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ArthurPE
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Post by ArthurPE » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:43 pm

karl wrote:Arthur - have you taken the inlet manifold off your car yet? Seeing is believing. Deposits were causing the valves on mine not to seat properly; you cant tell me that wasnt affecting performance.
no, no need, the car runs better than factory (or tested) claims...

I can't, nor won't 'tell' you anything...
believe what you like (or don't)

ET <13 sec
trap >112
wt >4000 lb
45k miles no valve cleaning
does not a 300 HP car make
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe...Albert Einstein

2manytoys
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Post by 2manytoys » Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:55 pm

Yep, Arthur, we tried everything else before they removed the intake (coils, plugs, software, flaps, octane booster, knock sensor, MAF and probably more that I didn't hear about). This had to be approved by Germany too. They sent numerous log files and test to Germany. This was over a week. Germany finally said remove the manifold. What they found was a large amount of carbon (I'll have pictures of mine soon). They are being put into an Engineering Report as we speak and being sent to Germany.

Audi spend yesterday cleaning the carbon off, and putting it back together. I got a call after the test run and they said it's fixed. They also had to replace some kind of fuel pump sensor as it had carbon all over it too.

SilverRS4 is right, it's the timing that pulls the engine back. Once the carbon is removed I suspect the timing will be back (I'll check that today and let everyone know).

Ignorance is bliss. It's carbon - end of story :-)

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silverRS4
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Post by silverRS4 » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:17 pm

Audi actually can eliminate carbon build-up with a custom tune. There is one such car. They pre-screened potential RS4 owners, and picked the owner with the most applicable credentials. To their surprise, only one owner actually filled in that blank. In fact, that owner provided enough background for a complete psychological profile. Audi management laughed with glee 'This guy is perfect!'. They gave that special car to him so that he could debase any actual evidence that shows up on forums.

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ArthurPE
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Post by ArthurPE » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:52 pm

2manytoys wrote:Yep, Arthur, we tried everything else before they removed the intake (coils, plugs, software, flaps, octane booster, knock sensor, MAF and probably more that I didn't hear about). This had to be approved by Germany too. They sent numerous log files and test to Germany. This was over a week. Germany finally said remove the manifold. What they found was a large amount of carbon (I'll have pictures of mine soon). They are being put into an Engineering Report as we speak and being sent to Germany.

Audi spend yesterday cleaning the carbon off, and putting it back together. I got a call after the test run and they said it's fixed. They also had to replace some kind of fuel pump sensor as it had carbon all over it too.

SilverRS4 is right, it's the timing that pulls the engine back. Once the carbon is removed I suspect the timing will be back (I'll check that today and let everyone know).

Ignorance is bliss. It's carbon - end of story :-)
bliss isn't the only thing that is ignorant, or easily duped ;)

I just timed my car 3 times on the way home, 3000-8000/3rd gear
32F
RH 80%+
damp roads

avg ~8.5 sec...why isn't my car affected?
or the car with 45k miles that ran <13 sec and >112 mph?

niether car has been 'cleaned'

fuel pump or pressure sensor huh, wonder if that could have anything to do with it?
perfect symptoms on the graph, no fuel at high rpm...hmmmm

timing retarded to its limit will set a code...as will detonation/ pinging
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe...Albert Einstein

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ArthurPE
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Post by ArthurPE » Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:54 pm

silverRS4 wrote:Audi actually can eliminate carbon build-up with a custom tune. There is one such car. They pre-screened potential RS4 owners, and picked the owner with the most applicable credentials. To their surprise, only one owner actually filled in that blank. In fact, that owner provided enough background for a complete psychological profile. Audi management laughed with glee 'This guy is perfect!'. They gave that special car to him so that he could debase any actual evidence that shows up on forums.
BS

'pre-screened', lol, based on what parameters...
Audi laughed with glee!? and how would you know that?
you're taking a piss right?

I'll be sending this to AoA for a response...
some friendly advice: be careful what you post on behalf of Audi, it may be defamatory and legally addressable...

edit: message forwarded to Audi, this should be good, lol
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe...Albert Einstein

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pippyrips
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Post by pippyrips » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:08 pm

I think there are two separate issues at work here:

1. Oil flowing back through the inlet manifold via the EGR system which covers the inlet valves & seals and gets baked on. (I think this is the reason why they tend to smoke on start up - oil drips into the head via open valves when switched off.)

2. Carbon deposits some how being forced back into the inlet from the cylinder head though open valves during firing.

2manytoys - i can save you & Audi six months as i already have 'before & after' pics of my cleaned inlet which i've posted in the past - i also have some 2k after the inlet was cleaned again and the EGR changed to a VTA set-up which completely blocked off oil from entering the inlet manifold. While build-up was reduced it had definately started to come back - even with the oil blocked off - it's a double-whammy effect.

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aidanjaye
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Post by aidanjaye » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:24 pm

So whats the best plan??? Just live with it?? Not trying to be flippant, just a question.

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Post by karl » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:32 pm

aidanjaye wrote:So whats the best plan??? Just live with it?? Not trying to be flippant, just a question.
I don't think there's any other choice...

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aidanjaye
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Post by aidanjaye » Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:33 pm

I think you may be right Karl.

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