Have a read of this, lots of good info on the stoptech site by the way...
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_wa ... disk.shtml
Help!...Need advice on warped RS4 discs
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tdiquattro
- 3rd Gear
- Posts: 465
- Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 4:55 pm
- Location: Bucks
I bought a B5 RS4 from Hadwins in 1995. It had 30600 miles on it and during the test drives the only concern I reported was a slight vibration once during braking. It was so slight that it could have been road surface and it did not repeat itself. The salesman assured me that it would be picked up during inspection.
Several weeks into my ownership and the vibration was so bad it had to go back for new discs and pads all-round. I did not have to pay. At this stage Hadwins informed me that the previous owner had sent the discs away for skimming. When I expressed my dissatisfaction with this the salesman reassured me by saying that it was just to remove light surface corrosion caused by lack of use.
During the next 18 months the trips back for new discs became routine. Hadwins were dreadful and eventually informed me that there was nothing more they could do and left me no choice but to take the car elsewhere (This was fine, their workmanship was awful anyway). I went through the standard learning curve (pad deposits causing high spots, high-speed hard stops to scrub the discs clean, leaving parked in gear to stop rear pads sticking, not holding brakes on after high-speed stops) and arrived at one conclusion - this is a modern, top-quality road car. Previously the only aspect of brake-sympathy I considered important was that if you brake hard from say 70 to zero and hold the brake on then the area under the pad gets mega-hot and tempers that part of the disc. This alters the thermal expansion coefficient locally and results in vibration when hot. These other bits of advice are just an excuse for something that is unfit for purpose.
Audi U.K were quite good throughout. They defended their interests as much as you would expect but ultimately never charged me a penny for brake parts on a six year old car. Unfortunately that doesn't pay for lost income, inconvenience, frustration, fuel and surely that vibration isn't good for other components? Eventually I wanted to draw a line under the whole thing and persuaded them to replace 4 discs, 8 pads, 4 calipers and all of the fluid in one go. I had always been paranoid that the previous owner may have used silicone (DOT 5) fluid and recall the contents of the reservoir were purpley-grey until the next fluid change when the colour became yellow.
It is now over a year since everything was replaced and my brakes are fine. I get the occasional vibration and the occasional squeak but as with every other car I have owned it goes away after a short time. There was probably a fault with the brakes but during the workshop inspection the brake temperature is several hundred degrees below operating temperature, and at £100 plus per hour there is a fine line between spending a few hours tracing a fault and simply replacing components.
Conclusions: The warranty is excellent. If you have never suffered brake vibration on previous cars then you shouldn't on this one. Replacing discs to cure vibration is akin to topping up your oil to cure a hole in the sump - yes the oil will need to be topped up but you should also fix what caused it in the first place. If you have a set of discs replaced and the new set quickly start vibrating then they should be replaced in addition to replacing the cause.
Hope this helps.
Do you still get a special e-mail address with RS4's? If so, use it - it side-steps the usual call-handlers.
Several weeks into my ownership and the vibration was so bad it had to go back for new discs and pads all-round. I did not have to pay. At this stage Hadwins informed me that the previous owner had sent the discs away for skimming. When I expressed my dissatisfaction with this the salesman reassured me by saying that it was just to remove light surface corrosion caused by lack of use.
During the next 18 months the trips back for new discs became routine. Hadwins were dreadful and eventually informed me that there was nothing more they could do and left me no choice but to take the car elsewhere (This was fine, their workmanship was awful anyway). I went through the standard learning curve (pad deposits causing high spots, high-speed hard stops to scrub the discs clean, leaving parked in gear to stop rear pads sticking, not holding brakes on after high-speed stops) and arrived at one conclusion - this is a modern, top-quality road car. Previously the only aspect of brake-sympathy I considered important was that if you brake hard from say 70 to zero and hold the brake on then the area under the pad gets mega-hot and tempers that part of the disc. This alters the thermal expansion coefficient locally and results in vibration when hot. These other bits of advice are just an excuse for something that is unfit for purpose.
Audi U.K were quite good throughout. They defended their interests as much as you would expect but ultimately never charged me a penny for brake parts on a six year old car. Unfortunately that doesn't pay for lost income, inconvenience, frustration, fuel and surely that vibration isn't good for other components? Eventually I wanted to draw a line under the whole thing and persuaded them to replace 4 discs, 8 pads, 4 calipers and all of the fluid in one go. I had always been paranoid that the previous owner may have used silicone (DOT 5) fluid and recall the contents of the reservoir were purpley-grey until the next fluid change when the colour became yellow.
It is now over a year since everything was replaced and my brakes are fine. I get the occasional vibration and the occasional squeak but as with every other car I have owned it goes away after a short time. There was probably a fault with the brakes but during the workshop inspection the brake temperature is several hundred degrees below operating temperature, and at £100 plus per hour there is a fine line between spending a few hours tracing a fault and simply replacing components.
Conclusions: The warranty is excellent. If you have never suffered brake vibration on previous cars then you shouldn't on this one. Replacing discs to cure vibration is akin to topping up your oil to cure a hole in the sump - yes the oil will need to be topped up but you should also fix what caused it in the first place. If you have a set of discs replaced and the new set quickly start vibrating then they should be replaced in addition to replacing the cause.
Hope this helps.
Do you still get a special e-mail address with RS4's? If so, use it - it side-steps the usual call-handlers.
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tartan_rob
- Cruising
- Posts: 2990
- Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 1:45 pm
- Location: Swindon, Wilts
If you take the bell from the disc to someone like Demon Tweaks (or others) they will give you loads of options RE different discs. I have some F1 carbon discs at home, I'd like to use..!
On the independant issue, I was led to believe that as long as the independant garage was VAT registered they had to honor the work whether it was crap or not - on the proviso that they had not asked you to go there.
I do a lot of work myself on the car and Audi Swindon are happy to look at things even though I have been there before and "dabbled". Perhaps it is anal dealer you are going too..>?
BTW Copperslip would no difference whatsoever. I do not use anything when I bolt discs on or when fitting pads into Calipers. That excuse is bollocks, is that the best they could come up with? If they don't know, why not say so.
BTW2, if your independant is using copperslip, they must be quite good, I don't know many garages that bother with it.
On the independant issue, I was led to believe that as long as the independant garage was VAT registered they had to honor the work whether it was crap or not - on the proviso that they had not asked you to go there.
I do a lot of work myself on the car and Audi Swindon are happy to look at things even though I have been there before and "dabbled". Perhaps it is anal dealer you are going too..>?
BTW Copperslip would no difference whatsoever. I do not use anything when I bolt discs on or when fitting pads into Calipers. That excuse is bollocks, is that the best they could come up with? If they don't know, why not say so.
BTW2, if your independant is using copperslip, they must be quite good, I don't know many garages that bother with it.
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tdiquattro
- 3rd Gear
- Posts: 465
- Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 4:55 pm
- Location: Bucks
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alex_123_fra
- 4th Gear
- Posts: 649
- Joined: Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:57 pm
Very useful guys thanks for all your advice. I didn't realise this problem was so common. These are supposed to be high quality parts and it isn't as if I even use it on a track. They should be able to take road use without any issues. I've never had any problems with vibration in other cars not even in my Evo in which the standard brembo discs are so crap that most people get vibration and have to change them.
I agree, I really don't think the independent did anything wrong. They have a superb reputation in modifying VAG cars and have won several awards. A lot of people on this forum use them. This leads me to believe that my dealer (whom I semi-trusted) is talking utter <beep> as others have mentioned. I don't think I'll trust them with this or any other issue again and I'll be taking my car elsewhere.
Possibly time to contact audi CS. What is this email address that bypasses the call-handlers Simon?
I agree, I really don't think the independent did anything wrong. They have a superb reputation in modifying VAG cars and have won several awards. A lot of people on this forum use them. This leads me to believe that my dealer (whom I semi-trusted) is talking utter <beep> as others have mentioned. I don't think I'll trust them with this or any other issue again and I'll be taking my car elsewhere.
Possibly time to contact audi CS. What is this email address that bypasses the call-handlers Simon?
Current: C7 RS6 - Black, VW Passat CC R36 - Black, Freelander 2 - Black
Sold: 911 C4S (991) - Black, Panamera Turbo ('11) - Carrera White, Nissan GT-R - DMG, B8 S4 - Phantom Black, B7 RS4 - Daytona grey saloon, Noble M400, Golf R32, Evo VIII MR, M3, Cooper S, Civic Type-R, BMW 120D (black), Mazda 6 MPS
Sold: 911 C4S (991) - Black, Panamera Turbo ('11) - Carrera White, Nissan GT-R - DMG, B8 S4 - Phantom Black, B7 RS4 - Daytona grey saloon, Noble M400, Golf R32, Evo VIII MR, M3, Cooper S, Civic Type-R, BMW 120D (black), Mazda 6 MPS
B5 RS4, MRC Remap, Milltek, RS6\B7 Brakes, Black\Carbon
Your a genie as well!!!!I've personally never really understood why Audi went for crossdrilled Brembo disks and you would have thought that grooved discs would have been more than able to cope with road and occasional track use and they would have better and longer term structural integrity i.e. less prone to warping.
Cross drilled unless made with top quality materials always have a risk of wapring or cracking becasue their integrity is not as great as a solid or grooved disk.
Cross drilled unless made with top quality materials always have a risk of wapring or cracking becasue their integrity is not as great as a solid or grooved disk.
Related to this thread, RS4 disks and pads have an inherent fault: the rivets in the friction material wear the discs unevenly and i had to have new disks and pads at 11k when the pad wear light cam on as the disks were down to minimum thickness. Not under warranty etc. 800 quid.
Message here is do NOT use Audi pads - use EBC or similar which do not have rivetted friction material, else you'll be spending this sort of money every time. It's a design fault. Quite obviously having three deep radial grooves which render the disc useless by the time you've worn the pads to the limit isn;t acceptable.
Message here is do NOT use Audi pads - use EBC or similar which do not have rivetted friction material, else you'll be spending this sort of money every time. It's a design fault. Quite obviously having three deep radial grooves which render the disc useless by the time you've worn the pads to the limit isn;t acceptable.
Many pads are constructed this way. The pad wear light circuit is closed by the rivet contacting the disc. It is a very crude system, much like the oil pressure warning light (it illuminates to tell you the engine is already damaged). It is a good idea to replace the pads well before this occurs not only to save the discs but also the thinner the pad the hotter it gets... A warning light is no substitute for care and maintenance.rjkflyer wrote:Related to this thread, RS4 disks and pads have an inherent fault: the rivets in the friction material wear the discs unevenly and i had to have new disks and pads at 11k when the pad wear light cam on as the disks were down to minimum thickness. Not under warranty etc. 800 quid.
Message here is do NOT use Audi pads - use EBC or similar which do not have rivetted friction material, else you'll be spending this sort of money every time. It's a design fault. Quite obviously having three deep radial grooves which render the disc useless by the time you've worn the pads to the limit isn;t acceptable.
Sorry, but the wear light is designed by the manufacturer to be the guide to replace - 3mm or so. By which time on an RS4, you're stuffed as the discs are destroyed. The rivet is NOT the point of contact - there's a wire embedded in the pads. EBC pads don't destroy the discs. Then again neither did they on an M3...
If it were a design fault and you have unsual marking on your disk you would have had them replaced FOC under warranty, much like my warped disks.rjkflyer wrote:Related to this thread, RS4 disks and pads have an inherent fault: the rivets in the friction material wear the discs unevenly and i had to have new disks and pads at 11k when the pad wear light cam on as the disks were down to minimum thickness. Not under warranty etc. 800 quid.
Message here is do NOT use Audi pads - use EBC or similar which do not have rivetted friction material, else you'll be spending this sort of money every time. It's a design fault. Quite obviously having three deep radial grooves which render the disc useless by the time you've worn the pads to the limit isn;t acceptable.
Only when they are evenly worn (disks and / or pads) would you have to pay.
I am interested to read SimonC's comments. I bought a new B7 in Aug'07, and after suffering some dramatic vibration and a pull to the left, Audi did an alignment check and replaced the front discs under warrant last November.
Having been out of the country for all of December, I am now finding a small but noticable vibration when braking from about 50mph. Figuring this must be rust and dirt on the dics I have done all the usual disc cleaning exercises (lots of braking hard, and coasting home) - but it doesn't seem to have cured the problem.
Surely I'm right in thinking this shouldnt happen on a 6month old, £55k car with only 4k miles on the clock!!! Any thoughts on what the problem might be? Audi wouldnt have replaced the discs and re-used the pads... would they???
Having been out of the country for all of December, I am now finding a small but noticable vibration when braking from about 50mph. Figuring this must be rust and dirt on the dics I have done all the usual disc cleaning exercises (lots of braking hard, and coasting home) - but it doesn't seem to have cured the problem.
Surely I'm right in thinking this shouldnt happen on a 6month old, £55k car with only 4k miles on the clock!!! Any thoughts on what the problem might be? Audi wouldnt have replaced the discs and re-used the pads... would they???
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