Pictures of my inlet ports....

[2manytoys]

So all these people get on here and some how produce pictures and figures very similar. You say they are all making it up? That's ridiculous. Most have found it's carbon after many other tests have happened. For me, it was Audi that found it, not me. They are they ones that wanted to clean it, they are the ones that said it was the fix. All I did was post up the process until Audi found the problem. Obviously someone in Audi knows something you don't.

I think people argue with you so much because they hope that one day you will put all that "knowledge" and inside information you have to good use and help them (that's what forums are about)

Those that have Carbon Buildup and have cleaned it, and had the power return, are looking for answers. If you are a person that can help, then help. Don't just deny that it exists, because as you don't like it, you are insulting the intelligence of the very good people here willing to share information for others benefit. Like me, I bet they have absoulutely no ties to Audi, nothing to gain, and are not even in the motor industry.

[ArthurPE]

I would expect all the pictures to be similar, ALL DI engines have deposits
it's a natural by-product of their operation...good thing, they aren't a problem...

RR dyno numbers are BS, only uncorrected wheel numbers matter
and then only if run steady state, variable load, and stabilized
ramp runs will never read correctly...the EEC type testing directive specs 60 secs and stable before a reading can be taken...
why will no dyno run a test like this? strange isn't it?

you seem to think 'good use' means agreeing with you...perhaps I am correct about this issue? nope, not possible...
perhaps I am helping some people?
the 3k to 8k runs are an interesting experiment...I can find no difference between cleaned/uncleaned cars...statistically insignificant...
there are cars that dynoed 350, the same spped as cars that dynoed 400+

as far as how Audi rated the engine? I just re-read the typing procedure...the engine is run in at 25%, 50% & 75% load for a total of 100 hours break-in, in mileage >4000, the engine surely has deposits, and it's not allowed to be cleaned...the tolerance is +/- 2% of rating...

I'm sure Audi knows something I don't..
but they know something I do, deposits don't cost significant power...
that is their official stance...

people can believe what they like, but that freedom applies to me also, doesn't it? why do you seem intent on convincing me to see things your way? oh, I know, you're right,I'm wrong...err, OK...

you believe what you like, but please allow me the same benefit of the doubt, OK?

So all these people get on here and some how produce pictures and figures very similar. You say they are all making it up? That's ridiculous. Most have found it's carbon after many other tests have happened. For me, it was Audi that found it, not me. They are they ones that wanted to clean it, they are the ones that said it was the fix. All I did was post up the process until Audi found the problem. Obviously someone in Audi knows something you don't.

I think people argue with you so much because they hope that one day you will put all that "knowledge" and inside information you have to good use and help them (that's what forums are about)

Those that have Carbon Buildup and have cleaned it, and had the power return, are looking for answers. If you are a person that can help, then help. Don't just deny that it exists, because as you don't like it, you are insulting the intelligence of the very good people here willing to share information for others benefit. Like me, I bet they have absoulutely no ties to Audi, nothing to gain, and are not even in the motor industry.

[2manytoys]

I'm not asking you to agree per se; I'm asking that if you do have the knowledge you so adamantly state, then why not question why this is happening.

I mean why are so many people reporting an increase in power? What can the carbon actually be doing? Why does it cause timing to <beep>? Why does it cause the power higher up in the rev range to drop off?

Surely you have the intelligence to understand people across multiple countries, not knowing each other, are finding out that carbon does cause power loss. Maybe it shouldn't happen, in theory, but it does.

Forget the actual peak power of Dyno's it's the shape of the curve that shows something is wrong.

Finally, why would Audi clean my valves if it wasn't a problem. Why would they replace the PCV to try to reduce carbon if it wasn't a problem, hell why even have a PCV there?

And the number one question, why do you spend so much time in the carbon threads if it's not a problem, and it's not happening to your car?

[PetrolDave]

The point of the debate is to learn something new (for instance today I learn that RS4 ECM's do not use fuzzy logic and vary their CF's), and potentially, like the DRC issue, get it addressed on behalf of the wider community if need be.

That sentence starts from the assumption that the carbon deposits are a major cause of power loss - that's not proven - and by implication that it is due to a design fault - which is also not proven.

[ArthurPE]

I know why it's happening, it has to happen...it's normal for this type of engine...the deabte is it a problem, I believe no, others yes...

I don't believe it decreases power
I don't believe it retards timing
I don't believe it impacts high end power

regardlesss of geographic region, imo, it does not cost significant power, 1 to 2 percent...

your power loss was a unique case, and was not deposits, I said that on day one, and still maintain that it was the flaps...

to appease the customer
imo it's been demonstrated it is NOT blow-by, due to experiemetation and good research by several members...all cars have that system, it is mandated by emission law, can't vent to atm...

because I see so much opinion, rather than science, proferred, that I try to share my perspective so folks have bother sides...
it is happening o my car, and evey RS4 (every DI car)
but it is not a problem, IMO

I try to answer with resepct, I fail at times...
please refain from comments implying I'm stupid, I'm wrong, and I don't understand...'surely you have the intelligence'

I'm not asking you to agree per se; I'm asking that if you do have the knowledge you so adamantly state, then why not question why this is happening.

I mean why are so many people reporting an increase in power? What can the carbon actually be doing? Why does it cause timing to <beep>? Why does it cause the power higher up in the rev range to drop off?

Surely you have the intelligence to understand people across multiple countries, not knowing each other, are finding out that carbon does cause power loss. Maybe it shouldn't happen, in theory, but it does.

Forget the actual peak power of Dyno's it's the shape of the curve that shows something is wrong.

Finally, why would Audi clean my valves if it wasn't a problem. Why would they replace the PCV to try to reduce carbon if it wasn't a problem, hell why even have a PCV there?

And the number one question, why do you spend so much time in the carbon threads if it's not a problem, and it's not happening to your car?

[SR71]

Dave,

We live in a suspicious world eh?

I have no agenda...I haven't even got the car anymore. But because I believe I might have one again in the future, I remain interested in "resolving the issue", or if indeed it turns out not to be one, educating myself to that effect.

But thats the whole point of the debate.

Having an open mind and all that...



But it appears to me that those who wish to believe carbon deposition is not a "problem" are looking increasingly desperate in their attempts to justify their position.

In order to do that you have to:

1) Look at those images floating around and dismiss them as "fine".

2) You have to attribute to any tuner (let alone Audi themselves) on 4 different continents, who, post-cleaning, find that cars recover significant power, the "Dynos are BS!" argument. Even if they are, and you do not believe the absolute numbers, you have to advance some explanation for the observed trends i.e., increase. The "vested interests" argument is scurrilous.

3) You have to find some excuse for cars "randomly" pulling their timing by >10 degrees because you don't think it could be the carbon. It ain't octane because, for example, Rob's car and mine were always run on 98/99RON

4) Look at the damage done to pistons on the YouTube video posted in this thread and find some explanation for it?

5) Explain why Audi have patented a technology to reduce the deposition if they don't believe it to be an issue?

6) Why Audi have modified various elements of the RS4 design for the purposes of inclusion in the RS5, if it is to cope with a "non-issue"?

and so on and so forth...

Admitting its an issue doesn't mean you're a bad person.

[ArthurPE]

and believing it to be an issue doesn't make it true (nor a 'bad' person)



1 they are fine
2 they don't make more power
3 how would deposits <beep> timing?
4 how would deposits casue 'ping', especilly since it pulled timing only marginally?
5 to minimize it, keep it below the threshhold where it MAY become an issue, that limit is very high...
6 to increase power and mpg, nothing to do with deposits, that's internet selective interpretatio, not from Audi

Dave,

We live in a suspicious world eh?

I have no agenda...I haven't even got the car anymore. But because I believe I might have one again in the future, I remain interested in "resolving the issue", or if indeed it turns out not to be one, educating myself to that effect.

But thats the whole point of the debate.

Having an open mind and all that...



But it appears to me that those who wish to believe carbon deposition is not a "problem" are looking increasingly desperate in their attempts to justify their position.

In order to do that you have to:

1) Look at those images floating around and dismiss them as "fine".

2) You have to attribute to any tuner (let alone Audi themselves) on 4 different continents, who, post-cleaning, find that cars recover significant power, the "Dynos are BS!" argument. Even if they are, and you do not believe the absolute numbers, you have to advance some explanation for the observed trends i.e., increase. The "vested interests" argument is scurrilous.

3) You have to find some excuse for cars "randomly" pulling their timing by >10 degrees because you don't think it could be the carbon. It ain't octane because, for example, Rob's car and mine were always run on 98/99RON

4) Look at the damage done to pistons on the YouTube video posted in this thread and find some explanation for it?

5) Explain why Audi have patented a technology to reduce the deposition if they don't believe it to be an issue?

6) Why Audi have modified various elements of the RS4 design for the purposes of inclusion in the RS5, if it is to cope with a "non-issue"?

and so on and so forth...

Admitting its an issue doesn't mean you're a bad person.

[PetrolDave]

and believing it to be an issue doesn't make it true (nor a 'bad' person)



1 they are fine
2 they don't make more power
3 how would deposits <beep> timing?
4 how would deposits casue 'ping', especilly since it pulled timing only marginally?
5 to minimize it, keep it below the threshhold where it MAY become an issue, that limit is very high...
6 to increase power and mpg, nothing to do with deposits, that's internet selective interpretatio, not from Audi

Second all that.

[Sims]

Slightly off topic but I struggle to see what Sims has done wrong since he joined the forum. Ironically the things he has been accused of apply just as much to the people having a go at him.

This is an open forum where people are allowed to question, ask and answer whatever they like. From what I can see Sims is genuinely interested in understanding the cause and effects of carbon/oil build up in the RS4 and yet, each time he posts on the subject he gets shot down. IMHO there are other members here than are far more patronising & annoying than Sims…

Appreciate a counter to what I consider a witchhunt conducted by Arthur & his handful of fans. Some of these people have tried to get me banned from this forum.

For me ownership of the RS4 is a long term situation. I have stated a number of times that the 3 major issues that concern me are carbon build-up (unresolved situation), DRC (partly resolved) and the excessive extended warranty cost (unresolved).

I acknowledge some of the old guard on here do not care about long term & lasting solutons/resolutions for these issues. Further, maybe they think they are being disloyal to Audi if they question what clearly are major concerns.

[Sims]

and believing it to be an issue doesn't make it true (nor a 'bad' person)



1 they are fine
2 they don't make more power
3 how would deposits <beep> timing?
4 how would deposits casue 'ping', especilly since it pulled timing only marginally?
5 to minimize it, keep it below the threshhold where it MAY become an issue, that limit is very high...
6 to increase power and mpg, nothing to do with deposits, that's internet selective interpretatio, not from Audi

Second all that.

Why am I not surprised

[Sims]

The point of the debate is to learn something new (for instance today I learn that RS4 ECM's do not use fuzzy logic and vary their CF's), and potentially, like the DRC issue, get it addressed on behalf of the wider community if need be.

That sentence starts from the assumption that the carbon deposits are a major cause of power loss - that's not proven - and by implication that it is due to a design fault - which is also not proven.

PD, do you know the defintive answer to the carbon issue? Can you provide categoric assurances that carbon build-up will not cause problems?

I suspect not. Therefore do not attempt to thwart the debate for it is useful. If you don't like it, don't participate in it. And yet you crop up everytime there is a debate on this discusssion, on this and other forums.

You have stated your opinion.

[ArthurPE]

That sentence starts from the assumption that the carbon deposits are a major cause of power loss - that's not proven - and by implication that it is due to a design fault - which is also not proven.

PD, do you know the defintive answer to the carbon issue? Can you provide categoric assurances that carbon build-up will not cause problems?

I suspect not. Therefore do not attempt to thwart the debate for it is useful. If you don't like it, don't participate in it. And yet you crop up everytime there is a debate on this discusssion, on this and other forums.

You have stated your opinion.

case in point, judgemental and argumentative...

I'm guessing Dave is not entitled to an opinion...
yet what he says is perfectly logical
the statement 'assumes' deposits are a problem
that has not been ascertained, and in absence of proof (not heresay, feelings, or 'it should') the base assumption must be the status quo, it does NOT cause a problem, since it is a NORMAL by-product of the process...

[ArthurPE]

and believing it to be an issue doesn't make it true (nor a 'bad' person)



1 they are fine
2 they don't make more power
3 how would deposits <beep> timing?
4 how would deposits casue 'ping', especilly since it pulled timing only marginally?
5 to minimize it, keep it below the threshhold where it MAY become an issue, that limit is very high...
6 to increase power and mpg, nothing to do with deposits, that's internet selective interpretatio, not from Audi

Second all that.

Why am I not surprised

again, attack those who do not agree with you, belittle and ridicule them...bad form...

so Dave can't formulate his own response? can't agree with anyone who differs from your position?

talk about stifling the debate...kettle, meet pot...

[Sims]

I haven't been on this Forum for about a week due to work commitments, and I have to say I'm deeply disappointed that we're still having these childish slanging matches. In many recent cases anyone trained in people management skills can see that there is an element of goading or baiting taking place - I'm not going to name names, you know who you are...

You should not be disappointed, but pleased that the debate is going further all the time. You have previously accused me of baiting. PD, let's get real -Arthur does not need a guardian watching over him. If you are so concerned for him, do please chat to him and coach him on how to avoid the debate that you consider "baiting". You may find you may starve him.

I'm all for questioning, I ask a LOT of dumb questions myself, but sometimes the answers are either not what you wanted to hear or involve a level of understanding and/or detail that cannot be expected of a layman. In either of those cases I've found that a period of silence while investigating and learning before asking a knowledgeable follow-up question is better than simply making a quick response.

I am hearing new things all the time. You have made up your mind on the carbon issue, do allow others to reach their own conclusions. And BTW, many of the people raising questions have a lot of experience, but yes I am a layman.

[scaghead]

Slightly off topic but I struggle to see what Sims has done wrong since he joined the forum. Ironically the things he has been accused of apply just as much to the people having a go at him.

This is an open forum where people are allowed to question, ask and answer whatever they like. From what I can see Sims is genuinely interested in understanding the cause and effects of carbon/oil build up in the RS4 and yet, each time he posts on the subject he gets shot down. IMHO there are other members here than are far more patronising & annoying than Sims…

Appreciate a counter to what I consider a witchhunt conducted by Arthur & his handful of fans. Some of these people have tried to get me banned from this forum.

For me ownership of the RS4 is a long term situation. I have stated a number of times that the 3 major issues that concern me are carbon build-up (unresolved situation), DRC (partly resolved) and the excessive extended warranty cost (unresolved).

I acknowledge some of the old guard on here do not care about long term & lasting solutons/resolutions for these issues. Further, maybe they think they are being disloyal to Audi if they question what clearly are major concerns.

sims after reading this post i think you are getting paranoid fella maybe banning yourself for a couple of weeks might do you a favour. take a little timeout for your sanity