Maximum gearbox torque before slipping

[blm70]

Thanks bam & Shop. I'm liking the sound of this now. Will speak with MRC although Doug did say that uprated boxes weren't totally problem free, but then I suppose anything can break if you try hard enough..

Edit: just been talking with Carmen @ 517 Trans. Whilst he can supply the valve body, he said this might not cure the slipping on its own especially if you already have internal damage. He recommended a full rebuild/upgrade which includes the uprated valve body, modified stator, clutches etc. and is guaranteed to hold big torque without slipping. He also said the standard 'box was on its limit @ 850Nm+ and that buying an exchange box from Germany would put you back at square one.

Cost of a full rebuild would be circa $4800 (£3400) plus shipping estimated at $400. Allow 1 week each way shipping plus 2-3 days for the work.

Still got to add removal/refitting costs though...

On the other hand, MRC are confident that an exchange box from Audi would not slip and they have never experienced issues with them.

[Jay_g]

I suppose the problem with the Audi box is its still the same chocolate box we have in our motors now, it's just reset the clock at a massive expense. Granted, you will probably never see it slip or fail in the time you have it.

Have you contacted JT about the issues too? I know it's been mapped, but if it's slipping then surely something isn't right and they should at least attempt to fix it?

[blm70]

I suppose the problem with the Audi box is its still the same chocolate box we have in our motors now, it's just reset the clock at a massive expense. Granted, you will probably never see it slip or fail in the time you have it.

Agreed.

Have you contacted JT about the issues too? I know it's been mapped, but if it's slipping then surely something isn't right and they should at least attempt to fix it?

Might give them a call just for the hell of it. Trouble is, when I say it's slipping they'll ask if it's been mapped. If I say no and they agree to redo it, how do I know it'll be any better than before, plus they didn't look after the car whilst it was with them.

They'll no doubt notice it's got different (i.e. the correct) ATF in it now which may void the warranty...

Suppose a phone call won't hurt.

[chunky79]

If you can do without the car for a while, I think 517 box is a no brainer. Problem is, I don't think they are that fast over there in turning things around. I can't say I've heard of any issues with their boxes over here? I know cryptics stuff took ages to do, MrPerc had swarf issues (but think that was from the previous fail), don't think bam had any problems?
An audi box would be perfect if taking it back to stage 1 only, no point imo after that.

[bam_bam]

I suppose the problem with the Audi box is its still the same chocolate box we have in our motors now, it's just reset the clock at a massive expense. Granted, you will probably never see it slip or fail in the time you have it.

Agreed.

Have you contacted JT about the issues too? I know it's been mapped, but if it's slipping then surely something isn't right and they should at least attempt to fix it?

Might give them a call just for the hell of it. Trouble is, when I say it's slipping they'll ask if it's been mapped. If I say no and they agree to redo it, how do I know it'll be any better than before, plus they didn't look after the car whilst it was with them.

They'll no doubt notice it's got different (i.e. the correct) ATF in it now which may void the warranty...

Suppose a phone call won't hurt.

The correct ATF is a moot point. They should've put that in for rebuild.

Suggest this:

- Get them to honour their warranty for a rebuild. Keep them on-side by toiling the shortcomings in the initial design for this tranny but more so to its application in this package.
- Say you really want 'it' to work, this time.
- Say you'll take the VB and TC to be rebuilt and you understand that this may void any further warranty, reminding them that your plan is to be left with a more robust unit.
- They rebuild the box with ZF parts, get them to itemise those parts, you'd be surprised how many people order the wrong parts for this version of the gearbox.
- Send the VB and TC to 517 Trans.
- Receive the VB and TC back from 517 Trans
- Marry the 517 Trans VB and TC with the newly rebuilt box.
- Run it in half throttle 500/1000miles.
- ATF change.
- WOT.
- Remap.
- More WOT.
- Smile... or cry.


You could further complicate this rebuild by telling your guys to use one these kits http://www.levelten.com/Audi_Vw_automat ... 0-7600.htm but I think that'd be a bridge too far.

[chunky79]

That's a great link bam, that should be in the sticky imo. If mine needed a rebuild I'd be asking for that kit to be used!!

[bam_bam]

That's a great link bam, that should be in the sticky imo. If mine needed a rebuild I'd be asking for that kit to be used!!

It's been discussed at length previously, years ago, I wanted to used it but the ZF guys wouldn't rebuild it with that kit so I gave up. Their argument was they were using the best parts and materials available...
Level 10 hasn't always had stellar feedback over the years but most of those were levelled (see what I did there?) at their employees, not the kits.

[Shoppinit]

If Level10 are still going despite the terrible feedback a few years ago then possibly they might be doing something right.

[blm70]

Bam Chunk & Shop - thank you for all the suggestions. At least I have some options to mull over

[Jay_g]

Did you ever make a decision/go back to the bloke who done the box?

[blm70]

I did and he acknowledged the fact that these boxes can handle up to 850+Nm etc. Chap then pointed out that the torque converters they use are reconditioned units they buy in i.e. this would be the weak link so to speak, and that whilst these TC's are fine with non-modified cars, once you start mapping then it becomes a lottery as to whether it will hold or not.

He showed me the inside of one where there is only one friction band in place to handle the torque. Later model 'boxes have more bands and he pointed to the Mercedes boxes that are apparently much more robust because of this.

Does this sound like b/s or does he have a point?

I understand MRC's approach removes any doubt by simply replacing the 'box with an exchange unit direct from Audi, although it's not a cheap option which is why many people consider getting theirs rebuilt (not cheap either.)

I have considered the updated components route, although I'm wary of it still not fixing the issue, as Murphy's Law would no doubt apply. At least the exchange unit option comes with a 2 year warranty.

Just doing the math - going from standard torque of 413lb/ft to (potentially) 650lb/ft is almost a 40% increase. Whilst mechanical components do have headroom, this sounds like a big ask...

Anyway, it's running fine at present and MRC have recently carried out a flush and ATF change, so for now I'll just enjoy it but I do see an exchange 'box on the horizon some time this year...

[bam_bam]

A failed lockup clutch in the TC can't really do much damage to the box. It would mean the box kinda gets 'smoother' torque as it's working on viscous coupling.
The clutch packs inside the box are pretty fragile though, there are a few other bits like slipper clutch etc that go. These autobox are all dark magic and witchcraft. You should just sacrifice virgins to the gearbox gods every month to be sure you retain forward gears.

[jockthedog]

A failed lockup clutch in the TC can't really do much damage to the box. It would mean the box kinda gets 'smoother' torque as it's working on viscous coupling.
The clutch packs inside the box are pretty fragile though, there are a few other bits like slipper clutch etc that go. These autobox are all dark magic and witchcraft. You should just sacrifice virgins to the gearbox gods every month to be sure you retain forward gears.

no black magic. It's really really simple. Honest. Not the valve bodies, those are mental, but still just pipework really.

If you have a spare few mins, watch this. The guy is dull but this shows you all you need to know. Start at 7.30mins

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5piYEX-jRt4

[bam_bam]

Yeah I've watched it before. Awesome and I get it all but it's still black magic.

[TTE Si]

We make near 1000nm on our RS6 no issues. If want I can put you In touch with the company that modified ours.