what happened to the wagner group buy?

[bam_bam]

So has it been proved that wagners shorten the turbo life, or is just calculated guessing?

It would have to be benched, AFAIK that test hasn't been done. 'Broscience' would suggest that the Wagners don't add power to a standard car/setup, they might create better airflow but only if requested (by ECU) or if supporting mods were in place.
You could have the biggest intercoolers in the world but if the supporting circuit can't flow any more air or the turbos aren't drawing any more air, then how have the world's biggest intercoolers given you MOAR POWAR (a serious question, not a statement)? Which brings us 'broscience' readers to the Wagner vs. OEM prolonging turbo life... well:

• - Wagners haven't been known to leak, whereas OEMs have been known to leak within days of installation, thus giving the turbos unmetered air.
  - Wagners have better cooling capacity, so 'broscience' will say they can give cooler air to the intake circuit for longer than the OEMs, this, in theory, will reduce the onset of heatsoak. I can't say if this is good nor bad for turbos (there could be arguments for and against but I'm too lazy and stupid to argue with myself).
  - Wagners look way cooler than the OEMs, 'nuff said.

Thing is, a warranty co will point at their policy, to which you agreed upon when you paid for it BUT the betterment clause throws everything into conjecture. In Doc's case, he could be "Mister Model Citizen" stating that he only wants these particular betterment intercoolers for their non-Swiss cheese like reliability. He could further strengthen his position but asking how the warranty co knows that these are power-adders or on what basis do they think these will stress the car and, if so, how would they measure an increase in power or stress? He could then think about how to respond or prepare some due diligence, if Doc found out the warranty co are right/wrong, then it's an informed decision and he now knows the rules of engagement as they've disclosed their argument first. BUT, Doc hasn't got the time to do the research, his car is sat awaiting a decision for Wagners vs. OEM, so he's playing his hand first and that's not good as he's got a three year warranty to think of.
I'm prepared to shuffle out on a limb here, cautiously eyeing the pool of circling sharks below but more worried about the chainsaw that Shoppinit has started oiling and filling with perfect ratio two-stroke fuel - but I'll say this from my slightly worrying position; a warranty co are more likely to rely on their engineer's opinion, historical failures or fall back on their policy wording rather than do actual research involving bench tests, dynos and alternative product testing. It's just not good business sense and it ain't their bag, nor should it be but it leaves them in the same position as their customers when trying to argue something like Wagners vs. OEM.

[sweegie]

You could have the biggest intercoolers in the world but if the supporting circuit can't flow any more air or the turbos aren't drawing any more air, then how have the world's biggest intercoolers given you MOAR POWAR (a serious question, not a statement)?

Bam, you're asking proper questions here. On a Friday too. Can we not just return to titties and beer instead of this? No?? Even bearing in mind this journey will take us away from the simple lumps of metal called intercoolers, through gas laws and thermodynamics, and eventually ending up in the workings of the Bosch ME7 ECU???

[Shoppinit]

There's all sorts of things going on in the intercoolers. Yes, the waggers are bigger so they'll take more filling (marginally) they'll also cool the charge better (possibly) which, ironically, makes it more dense and hence reduces the pressure. Again, slightly, but the turbo can make up for that easily. Much better to have a cooler charge.

So if you had the biggest intercoolers in the world (I'm guessing there must be some riduculously big ones for those monster diggers or something) then it would take so long for your turbos to build up the charge pressure that you would already have changed gear at least 3 times. But at least your charge temperature would be at ambient temperature.

[bam_bam]

Bam, you're asking proper questions here. On a Friday too. Can we not just return to titties and beer instead of this? No?? Even bearing in mind this journey will take us away from the simple lumps of metal called intercoolers, through gas laws and thermodynamics, and eventually ending up in the workings of the Bosch ME7 ECU???

The long weekend has thrown me off kilter. After reading Shop's post I realise that I forgot (idiot) about the increased volume to the circuit. Shop's comment gives credence to why a remap is required to take advantage of the Wagners.
I'm gunna stick to tits and beer in future.

[Shoppinit]

In reality with the waggers, it makes no difference on a standard car. See my logs that I posted recently for before / after logs. You can see the difference in IAT and boost times. Also acceleration.

[sweegie]

Some stuff to ponder over a beer

The ME7 ECU is based around Mass Air Flow (MAF sensors). I.E. for a given accelerator position, it will attempt to get x grammes of air into a cylinder. Boost pressure is a by product of this, i.e. if it needs to get 200g of air onto a cylinder and it's not doing so, it will increase boost pressure until it does.

It's more air mass in the cylinders that give you power, not more boost pressure.

This is important:

The boost pressure the ME7 asks for is a by-product of it trying to get a certain air mass in the cylinder. If the air is hot, ME7 will request more boost pressure to get a certain air mass into the cylinder. If the air is cold, ME7 will request less boost pressure to get a certain air mass into the cylinder.

So, now you see that ME7 is clever and you don't need wagners at all

And this is correct, until you realise that as you increase the boost pressure to get the required cylinder fill, it creates more heat and you need to increase the pressure again, which gets the air even hotter and then you need to increase the boost pressure again... etc etc... until you're now running at 3bar boost and 90c inlet air temps. It's about now your engine grenades its self due to detonation and your turbo thrust bearings disintegrate
Fortunately this does not happen, as the ME7 has a table that sets the maximum boost pressure available. Once this has been reached, if the ECU cannot get the requested air mass into the cylinder, you just loose power.

So you do need Wagners

Well kind of... Yes, they are less restrictive which means the turbo has less work to do in the first place, and yes, they have a larger volume which in turn equates to a larger surface area to dissipate the heat. But, so do the standard intercoolers, and at standard boost pressures they work fine if they're not leaking.

With me so far?

Contrast this to the cars of old which used MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensors to control boost. Instead of the accelerator pedal requesting an air mass, it requests a boost pressure. EG full throttle requests 1 bar. With a crap intercooler you get 1 bar of hot air with low air mass & gives you crap performance. With a good intercooler it gives you 1 bar of cold air with good performance.

So basically:

On MAF controlled cars, dropping in a good intercooler will not give you any more horsepower, unless you reach the maximum boost pressure allowed by the ECU
On MAP controlled cars, dropping in a good intercooler will give you more horsepower.
Boost pressure is meaningless unless given with a temperature
Wagners don't increase performance until you reach beyond the limits of the standard intercoolers, as the ME7 compensates for the hotter air with more boost pressure.

[cfcdoc]

Just been down to mrc ..dropped off baby girl..sprint blue sixer 03 reg and lots of rs4 b7 and b5 but lukes isn't there..gutted ..wanted to hear darth take off as Stuart described it..he dropped me off down the station also...thoroughly nice chap as harry enfield would say, however, to the bloke who had the old s3 that didnt say thank you out of courtesy to me for reversing 30yds to let u out the drive ..politeness is free my friend

[Shoppinit]

Sweegie, I feel you are about to be TOLD by JCviggen He'll do it better than I can.

[frenchy]

i just changed my hoses for the wagners hoses, the bottom ones were very soft, and i reckon not far from splitting. it's definately wortha look doc, and bam is right, the belly pan will have to come off.

i will fit the waggers this WE, no problem for the IC as i installed the waggers also on my RS4 some time ago

my question are related to the optionnal 6 hoses kit that comes with, there are 4 hoses that obviously will be used with the IC

the last 2 hoses are connected to the turbos if i'm correct, parts 27/28


as i couldn't find on the forum anything related to their installation,
if someone did fit these 2 hoses, any tips for the installation?, looks like it is a PITA

[Shoppinit]

You can get to them from under the car. Bit of a PITA, but doable. A ramp will make it a looooooooot easier.

[frenchy]

found some tips on RS6.com

The front lower ones that connect to the intercooler on one end connect to short metal pipes which then connect to the two short hoses which then connect to the Turbo's. You need to pull the metal pipes out which are held by two nuts then clamp the two short hoses on to them first, then slip them up to the turbos. They are a little tight to get at, but doing them from underneath is a must. An extension with a socket will let you get to the clamps bolt to tighten them down. Yes, the ones under the headlights (top hoses) are a tight PIA to get on.

i did the wagners on my RS4 with a pair of jack
for the RS6, i have a lift

[sweegie]

Sweegie, I feel you are about to be TOLD by JCviggen He'll do it better than I can.

Yea, but he's not around so do your best

[bam_bam]

Sweegie, I feel you are about to be TOLD by JCviggen He'll do it better than I can.

Yea, but he's not around so do your best

Pre-TOLD.

[sweegie]

Sweegie, I feel you are about to be TOLD by JCviggen He'll do it better than I can.

Yea, but he's not around so do your best

Pre-TOLD.

*cough*

So, here is the KFTARX map for the 367724 release of the RS6 software, where you can see % calculated load limit as a function of RPM and inlet temperature.

Note the large pulls for both low and high temperature, with slight increases up to 60c to deal with the less dense air.

Now, about that beer.....

[Shoppinit]

What's your point?